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perocity
03-29-2010, 01:21 AM
British forces are to be withdrawn from Helmand and replaced by United States Marines under controversial new plans being drawn up by American commanders.
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Source:Telegraph.co.uk
By Toby Harnden in Kabul
Published: 2:00AM BST 28 Mar 2010
6582
The proposal, which would have to be approved by a new British government, is facing stiff resistance. Whitehall officials fear that a pull-out from Helmand, where nearly 250 British troops have been killed since 2006, would be portrayed as an admission of defeat.

Under the plans, British forces would hand over their remaining bases in Helmand to the US Marines as early as this year. Such a move could bring back unhappy memories of the 2007 withdrawal from Basra in southern Iraq, which provoked jibes about British forces being bailed out by the Americans.

The proposal is linked to a reorganisation of Nato's International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) forces that will split the current Regional Command (South) in two after an American-led offensive against the Taliban in Kandahar this summer.

A senior American officer in ISAF said that "the Marines will be the primary force in Helmand and Nimruz" while "British forces will go to a combination of Kandahar and Uruzgan and Zabul".

British officials opposed to the move argue that the ground-level expertise and knowledge of local power brokers in Helmand, which they have built up over many years, would be squandered in apparent contradiction of the "know the people" counter-insurgency doctrine put in place by the Nato commander in Afghanistan, Gen Stanley McChrystal.

But while acknowledging the political sensitivities, a senior British officer in ISAF said that a new role outside Helmand would be central to Gen McChrystal's campaign strategy, which is based on protecting the main Pashtun population centres.

"Through the microcosm of the UK media lens, a lot of people will say, 'We fought, we've spilt British blood in Helmand and now we're withdrawing'," the official said.

"Completely wrong. We're going to where the main effort is."

Under Gen McChrystal's plan, Helmand and Nimruz will come under a new Regional Command (South West) while Kandahar, Uruzgan and Kabul will constitute Regional Command (South East).

The US Marines have a strong tradition of independence and a determined preference for operating alone in a single area, as they did in Iraq's Anbar province. Nato has agreed that Major General Richard Mills of the US Marines – who for 18 months commanded ground forces in Iraq's Anbar province – will take command of the new south-western area of Afghanistan.

In a recent interview with The Daily Telegraph, Gen McChrystal stressed that Kandahar was of "tremendous moral importance" to the Taliban because it was their former capital and the birthplace of their leader the one-eyed Mullah Omar.

Asked whether British forces would move to Kandahar, he responded carefully: "There's a lot of politics involved in where forces go, so rather than start a political debate about where forces are what I'd rather do is just move on with where things are now and let things develop."

Canadian forces, 2,500 of which are currently based in Kandahar – where British forces won a decisive battle in 1880 that brought the Second Afghan War to an end – are due to withdraw from Afghanistan next year. Some 2,000 Dutch forces in Uruzgan are due to be pulled out by August.

British forces first deployed to Helmand in significant numbers in spring 2006, when 3,300 members of 16 Air Assault Brigade arrived. Their mission was to restore security so that reconsstruction could begin and the illegal opium trade be disrupted.
But they faced an immediate upsurge in Taliban activity and this has continued ever since, leading to regular calls for greater troop numbers. There are currently around 10,000 from the UK in the region, and 248 soldiers have been killed there.

This would leave a vacuum in south-eastern Afghanistan at a time when US Marines are pouring into Helmand as part of President Barack Obama's surge of 30,000 troops, which will soon bring American forces to a level of 100,000, double what they were a year ago. About 20,000 US Marines will be in Helmand by this summer, more than twice the number of British troops there.

Some senior American officers believe the British have become too attached to "Helmandshire" and have developed tunnel vision.

Although British troops have been praised for their valour, the consensus within the American military is that control of the province has slipped away because of inadequate numbers, poor equipment and thin logistical support.

Senior American officers also believe the British became distracted by defending bases in outlying areas like Musa Qala, Kajaki and Sangin when they should have concentrated on the more-populated central Helmand.

A Washington defence source said that, under the new plan, "Helmandshire will become Marine-istan."

The main British logistics base in Afghanistan is already at Kandahar airfield – a factor that makes a shift from Helmand more feasible. Nato forces in southern Afghanistan are currently commanded by Maj Gen Nick Carter from his Regional Command (South) headquarters at the airfield.

Mark Sedwill, formerly British ambassador in Afghanistan and now Nato's Senior Civilian Representative, acknowledged that withdrawal of British forces from Helmand would make "a lot of sense" when viewed from a "purely military perspective".

This was because "the challenges in Kandahar are very well suited to the resources we can bring and the capabilities" British troops have.

"Could we end up with the Brits in Kandahar?" he said. "I guess theoretically we could and certainly I wouldn't rule it out because from the ISAF perspective we need to look at what is the sensible force deployment as the Canadians draw down after 2011 and given how central Kandahar is to the entire campaign.

"But any shift of that kind is not just an ISAF decision, it would have to be agreed with the British government of the day. There would be enormous political sensitivities to manage just because of the amount of investment of blood and treasure that has gone into central Helmand."

Maj Gen Gordon Messenger, senior British military spokesman, said that there was "no thought at the moment of doing anything other" than "a job which is utterly, utterly needed as part of the coalition force in central Helmand".

He added: "How that function changes over time is clearly being looked at ... and there are any number of options. But it would be unwise to view moving and conducting ground-holding in Kandahar as one of them."

MickDonalds
03-29-2010, 03:06 AM
The proposal is linked to a reorganisation of Nato's International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) forces that will split the current Regional Command (South) in two after an American-led offensive against the Taliban in Kandahar this summer.

Which REALLY means: "You Americans will have to do it by yourselves because we pussy Euros can't ever pull our weight and mostly send trouble troops to A'stan that can't get the job done"

ianstone
03-29-2010, 06:45 AM
Saw this article as it was aired, I just see the history of the government for what it is. An Election is some 40 days away and this government is clutching at straws.
To Laud cries the troops are coming home, vote for P.M. Brown
The relocation of British forces, sooner rather than latter was obvious to a blind-man (no offence meant).
There are 200 civil servants in the country already ,planing, coercing and lets say, using financial inducements ready for the next phase, closely guarded secret meetings.
and bartering to keep their favorite she goat and I.E.D.'s .Special military are guarding once wanted men ready for these talks. September is always a good month for such deals.

Yet in a total reality check, the fight goes on and will do for some time, it is hoped by British commanders, when the Americans take over. It will be a simple policing action. With little or no casualties, I hope and pray there right.

GTFPDQ
04-04-2010, 11:52 PM
Which REALLY means: "You Americans will have to do it by yourselves because we pussy Euros can't ever pull our weight and mostly send trouble troops to A'stan that can't get the job done"

Sorry man, but you really think the Brits are Euro pussies. Get your head out your arse and think about it..... now you have thought about it, you know your a wanker for saying it!

Pittsburgh
04-05-2010, 08:44 AM
Although British troops have been praised for their valour, the consensus within the American military is that control of the province has slipped away because of inadequate numbers, poor equipment and thin logistical support.

I don't care if you are British or American, this seems to be a problem throughout the military. If you are going to send our men and women over there (Brits or Yanks), at least make sure they have the support and proper equipment. As a civilian, this is one of the main aspects of this conflict that has irked the shit out of me ever since day one.

Bottomline in my book, either support the people you are sending in there to fight these wars and give them the proper tools needed to get the job done or get the hell out of there. They want more troops? Send them more troops. They want the proper equipment? They should have had the proper equipment the day they stepped foot in that country.

I'm not over there calling the shots nor am I an armchair general, but there is no excuse for it in my opinion.

MickDonalds
04-05-2010, 10:14 AM
Sorry man, but you really think the Brits are Euro pussies. Get your head out your arse and think about it..... now you have thought about it, you know your a wanker for saying it!

Sending a sparse number of troops to do a job that obviously requires many thousands isn't pulling your weight.

I stand by my comments.

The Euros can't get the job done because they're not truly committed. Typical. We've seen it before and we'll see it again.

GTFPDQ
04-05-2010, 06:04 PM
The UK has some 10500 troops in country, including SF and SF Support units. They along with the US and Canada are fighting the most intensive battles on a daily basis. How can you claim that the UK should be grouped along with the other European countries support?

There is a finite resource of troops, British Army levels are around the 100k and Afghanistan is 1 deployment where 10% of UK forces are now operating. The RAF sits around the 40K and the RN at about 35K..... If you think the US should go it alone because you cant see the benefit of your allies, then Im sad.

Britain has stood by the US in all of this, ALL OF THIS. If your way of thinking is the way the US troops feel, there is a huge problem brewing.

Toki
04-05-2010, 06:44 PM
The UK has some 10500 troops in country, including SF and SF Support units. They along with the US and Canada are fighting the most intensive battles on a daily basis. How can you claim that the UK should be grouped along with the other European countries support?

There is a finite resource of troops, British Army levels are around the 100k and Afghanistan is 1 deployment where 10% of UK forces are now operating. The RAF sits around the 40K and the RN at about 35K..... If you think the US should go it alone because you cant see the benefit of your allies, then Im sad.

Britain has stood by the US in all of this, ALL OF THIS. If your way of thinking is the way the US troops feel, there is a huge problem brewing.

Don't mind him. Most Americans still like the UK/US partnership.

MickDonalds, please go read a few books on the British military. British infantry are some of the hardest fighting and most discipline soldiers ever known. Please remove your pompous head from your ass.

MickDonalds
04-05-2010, 07:00 PM
Don't mind him. Most Americans still like the UK/US partnership.

MickDonalds, please go read a few books on the British military. British infantry are some of the hardest fighting and most discipline soldiers ever known. Please remove your pompous head from your ass.

I've read plenty of books. Wtf does that have to do with actual FACT?

Explain please, 4F

Toki
04-05-2010, 08:08 PM
I've read plenty of books. Wtf does that have to do with actual FACT?

Explain please, 4F

It means they not pussies, as you claim. They've been in Helmand since '06 fighting the Taliban. They've been putting up with their shit longer than the US has. It's simple logistics and you're turning into a "who has the best military" debate.

MickDonalds
04-05-2010, 11:17 PM
It means they not pussies, as you claim. They've been in Helmand since '06 fighting the Taliban. They've been putting up with their shit longer than the US has. It's simple logistics and you're turning into a "who has the best military" debate.

Shocking!!!!

Sounds like someone needs to do some reading. We've been the largest presence in A'stan since 2002, tough guy.

Toki
04-05-2010, 11:41 PM
Shocking!!!!

Sounds like someone needs to do some reading. We've been the largest presence in A'stan since 2002, tough guy.

I'm talking about Helmend for fuck sake. Read my post again.

MickDonalds
04-06-2010, 12:40 AM
It means they not pussies, as you claim. They've been in Helmand since '06 fighting the Taliban. They've been putting up with their shit longer than the US has. It's simple logistics and you're turning into a "who has the best military" debate.

Read it again, as you asked, and no, you're still wrong jackass.

GTFPDQ
04-06-2010, 02:47 AM
Its lost on you Mick, totally lost on you. Opinions are good, debate is good but both need compromise to reach agreement. Before you say it, I know your an American and that you believe that because of that you (personally) don't compromise. Sadly, you compromise every day to exist.

Thankfully, the other American members of AC are here for discussion and a laugh. You got to lighten up!

Pittsburgh
04-06-2010, 10:41 AM
Most Americans still like the UK/US partnership.

Count me in as an American who doesn't "like" the UK/US partnership.

For me, it goes well beyond simply liking the relationship. I love it. I have the utmost respect and appreciation for the British men and women who are fighting alongside our military forces in order to help destroy a common enemy. In my opinion, the British have fought very valiantly and have paid a heavy price in Afghanistan over the years.

If I could, I'd buy a "pint" for all of them. :)

ianstone
04-06-2010, 12:52 PM
From my heart, thank you.
I live in a military community
Your comments mean a great deal for those forces who have been abused by the government,
as by the Taliban. Your comments are a breath of fare minded and balanced view.

bobdina
04-07-2010, 12:54 PM
Personally I have trained with and been trained by U.K. forces and I loved them and they're way of doing things.They have a total force(including reserves) of approx. 225,000 (http://www.armedforces.co.uk/mod/listings/l0003.html). I think (personal opinion here) they have contributed more then they're fair share taking the brunt of heavy fighting in Helmand while we were busy with the surge in Iraq. Now if your talking about the rest of Europe their are plenty of Government's I have a problem for with their commitment to NATO, however the U.K. is not one of those.

Nice to see ya Charlie.( actually read ya)

Markoxx
04-07-2010, 02:11 PM
Mickdonalds your comments are so fucked up, WTF are you talking about, UK troops are pussies?!!! are you fucking serious??!!! Well this is you personal thoughts but listen you are very very very WRONG, think again. I dont know but I think It was you who said Its only the english allies that fight touhg In afghanistan and Iraq, is not the UK one of em?? Jesus christ man you make me sick , Im not british you know that very good but believe me the UK army is bad ass and they did a great job In both Iraq and Afghanistan. I understand what you mean wiht the eurpian pussies, yes there are some countires that are pussies to fight in Europe but the UK is absolutely not one of them. think about what you wrote again