MARSOC, Force Recon, and SEALs; What sets them apart?

[ghost]

Hey, guys. This has been something that I have wondered about for ages. Now, I know that MARSOC was recently created, and with that, the Force Recon units were absorbed into it. Maybe some of the military guys(or Marines) on the forum could help me out with this.

I've always seen USMC Force Recon, and the Navy SEALs as very similar units. They did some similar jobs, but there were others that were different. Force recon did reconnaissance on behalf of the main Marine ground force, and generally penetrates deeper into enemy lines(in a conventional war sense, that is). SEALs do a lot of unconventional warfare, they excel in all things aquatic, direct action(almost all SOF units do this, though)...etc. I know some of these skills and mission sets have a tendency to overlap each other, in the Special Operations community. So, what set Force Recon and the SEALs apart?

And now with the introduction of MARSOC, what are they bringing to the table? What is their niche'?

I've always kinda looked at MARSOC/Force Recon as a cross between Rangers and SEALs. Somewhere in the middle.

Could anyone elaborate a little more on this? Thanks.

[Woodbutcher824]

Go to look at the training, that would tell everything.

But, maybe we should ask a Seal about this.

[sparkie]

Navy seals are mostly water dogs with high qualifications, devotion, and training.
Marine Recon eat baby chicks for fun.

Git the picture??

[Cruelbreed]

Navy seals are mostly water dogs with high qualifications, devotion, and training.
Marine Recon eat baby chicks for fun.

Git the picture??

I don't, what exactly do Force Recon do, what's their training like.

[Woodbutcher824]

Navy seals are mostly water dogs with high qualifications, devotion, and training.
Marine Recon eat baby chicks for fun.

Git the picture??


Oh shit, a Marine. :evilgrin: Who let you guys in here????? :freakout:

Hide the booze boys, or you will be dry. :D

Wait...... Instead of asking the Seals for the training, maybe it should be the Green Berets..... :P:P:P

Just fuck'n with ya, have 2 cousins that are Devil Dogs, don't know what units thought.

[sparkie]

Tried to post some info, by cut n paste,,,, but it kept freezing the site at my end. Don't know how to work this site yet. I'll work on it.

[sparkie]

Got me a steel reserve in my fist at this moment,,, so stand by,,,,,;]

[Cruelbreed]

Out of curiosity what browser you using sparkie?

[ghost]

Hehe. Still waiting for the answer.... :lol:

[sparkie]

Hold yer britches up,,,,I'm workin on it,,,
I use Microsoft Expelorer,,,,,,,, You usin sumpthin else? First Page? Modzilla?

[ghost]

Hold yer britches up,,,,I'm workin on it,,,
I use Microsoft Expelorer,,,,,,,, You usin sumpthin else? First Page? Modzilla?


LOL. Yeah, I use Firefox.

[Cruelbreed]

Try Mozilla firefox, it gives me less issue. IE explorer gives me issues for some reason.

[Cruelbreed]

Found a thread elsewhere describing the Force Recon is.

http://army-military-forces.brighterplanet.org/military/how-does-usmc-force-recon-differ-from-navy-seals-and-army-special-forces

Not to mention the marine corps MARSOC history.
http://www.marsoc.usmc.mil/questions-responses.html

It seems Marine Force Recon aren't part of SOCOM and primarily fill a reconaissance mission.

One answer from that page.




Marine Force Recon is a tier below the SEALs and Army SF. They are a landing recon force whose primary mission is to scout out unknown territory in small groups and identify possible threats. They are highly trained and capable units who excel in evasion, survival and small force conflict. They are not a direct assault or attack force.
MFR is not yet part of SOCOM. In 2010 to DOD is supposed to determine the necessity of MFR and decide if they will fall into SOCOM with the Army SF, Navy SEALs and Delta Force.
What this means is that MFR, although highly qualified, is not under the direct control of the DoD (like SOCOM units) or Pentagon and rather falls under the USMC and Navy command. Their missions are not of special importance to the US, but more specific to the needs of the Navy and USMC.
MFR would be analogous to Army Rangers except more focused in the infiltration business instead of the direct conflict missions.
Training wise, MFR members have Marine Basic, Infantry school, SERE, Army Airborne, and possibly Army Ranger school. Nearly the same repitoire as an Army Ranger except they have Army Basic.
Army SF for example, have Army Basic, AIT, Airborne, Air Assault, Pathfinder, SERE, SFAS, thier SF Specialy school (25-64 weeks) and a year of language school. So in all, they have about 1.5 years more training and a MFR member.
Here is a simply breakdown of the roles of the US Military’s special and elite units (also in order of prestige/selectiveness). This serves to list the PRIMARY role of each force, although each does many different types of missoins.
Delta Force: Counter-terrorism and hostage rescue
Navy SEALs: Infiltration, Espianoge and recon
Army SF: Imbed with foreign Armies, train and fight with them
AF PJs: Rescue of downed pilots
Army Rangers: Airborne operations, first unit in, direct force on force combat, tip of the spear
MFR: shore recon, first unit in, small unit conflict, tip of the spear


Let me know what else you find. I think the Force Recon title is gone now and was absorbed by MARSOC, as USMC MARSOC is now part of Socom, yay.

[ghost]

Found a thread elsewhere describing the Force Recon is.

http://army-military-forces.brighterplanet.org/military/how-does-usmc-force-recon-differ-from-navy-seals-and-army-special-forces

Not to mention the marine corps MARSOC history.

It seems Marine Force Recon aren't part of SOCOM and primarily fill a reconaissance mission.

One answer from that page.

Oh wow. Awesome. Thanks for the reply. I appreciate it.

Yeah, I knew that Force Recon was not part of SOCOM, so "technically" they were not a special operations force. But, they were considered to be so by the Marines. They were just "their own special ops guys".

Now, what about MARSOC? Anything on them? Because, these guys are actually an "official" legit Special Operations unit. They have all of the capabilities that Force Recon had, plus more.

So, I guess now the main reconnaissance arm of the Marine Corps lies within the Reconnaissance and LAR platoons.

I really liked this little breakdown -

Delta Force: Counter-terrorism and hostage rescue
Navy SEALs: Infiltration, Espianoge and recon
Army SF: Imbed with foreign Armies, train and fight with them
AF PJs: Rescue of downed pilots
Army Rangers: Airborne operations, first unit in, direct force on force combat, tip of the spear
MFR: shore recon, first unit in, small unit conflict, tip of the spear

Very short, and to the point.

[bobdina]

Recon Marines are in demand, and the Corps is responding to the need by extending the service of “0321s” another year with a bonus for those who answer the call.

Beginning Oct. 1, the Corps will increase the active-duty service obligation for new reconnaissance Marines from four to five years, according to Marine Administrative message 285/09. The extra year will “help meet increased demand for Reconnaissance Marines in the operating forces,” officials with Manpower and Reserve Affairs said.

The five-year program will include a $7,500 enlistment bonus to initial-accession recon Marines who complete the Basic Reconnaissance Course and obtain the 0321 primary military occupational specialty. The money is paid once a Marine attains that MOS.

“This will allow first-term 0321 Marines to complete more than one deployment and participate in additional MOS-related training after the Basic Reconnaissance Course,” according to the MarAdmin, signed April 30.

Marines who make a lateral move into the 0321 MOS are not eligible for the bonus, and the program does not apply to reservists.

Those who have enlisted under the four-year infantry program can volunteer for the five-year obligation if they are still in the initial training pipeline at the School of Infantry, “if training seats at BRC are available,” the MarAdmin states.

Marines on track to become infantrymen, who have already received shipping bonuses or any other type of enlistment bonus, are not eligible for the recon bonus. Those who do not qualify for medical or disciplinary reasons, who cannot obtain the appropriate security clearance or fail the BRC will be reclassified to a MOS, “based on the needs of the Marine Corps,” according to the MarAdmin.

There are currently 1,371 recon Marines, 277 shy of the Corps’ plan to grow the 0321 MOS to 1,648 by 2010, according to MarAdmin 139/06. That 2006 MarAdmin, which will be canceled Sept. 30, offers a $10,000 enlistment bonus.

In late December, less than two years after that message was published, the Corps activated a Force recon company at Camp Lejeune, N.C., giving the service an additional option for reconnaissance and special operations missions. Similar units are scheduled to be activated in California and Okinawa, though it’s unclear when.

Force recon companies aren’t new to the Corps. In 2006, the Corps folded 2nd Force Reconnaissance Company and many of its members were absorbed into Marine Corps Forces Special Operations Command, which stood up in late February of that year.

MarSOC is now closing in on its 2,600-force goal.

[ghost]

Nice article.

So, does this mean that Force Recon Companies still exist? I'm confused....

[bobdina]

Thats what I understand for other things I have read. There are at least 2 active duty force recon companies. The Marines wanted this keep this organic to the Corps . The Marscom Marines are under the control of SOCOM so the Marines lost some of that capability when the force guys got folded in. To keep some on that speciality they plan on activating 2 more companies although one will be a reserve component. Now some of this is a little old (about a year) so things may change.

[ghost]

Thats what I understand for other things I have read. There are at least 2 active duty force recon companies. The Marines wanted this keep this organic to the Corps . The Marscom Marines are under the control of SOCOM so the Marines lost some of that capability when the force guys got folded in. To keep some on that speciality they plan on activating 2 more companies although one will be a reserve component. Now some of this is a little old (about a year) so things may change.

Alright, cool. Makes sense. Force Recon is definitely a very useful asset to the Corps.

I guess that in a conventional war scenario, Force Recon would perform some similar tasks that SEALs do?

Anymore info on MARSOC? I'm very curious about where they really fall in, in the whole SOCOM spec-ops mix up. Right now, I know that MARSOC's combat element is made up of two Marine Corps Special Operations Companies(MSOCs) which are known as DASR(Direct Action Special Reconnaissance) units, and then there's also the Advisor group(MSOAG) which has tasks, such as training foreign military personnel...etc(Green Beret stuff).

Any info on MARSOC training? Sorry for all the questions, and I guess they may seem a bit repetitive, but I'm quite curious about this.

[bobdina]

Where they fall in is really up to SOCOM. From everthing I have seen and read they are more of a direct action group that being the Marines bread and butter but they can still do the full spectrum of special ops duties. The commander on the ground makes a request to SOCOM for a special unit and what he needs it for and then SOCOM decides who to send. MarSOC announces restructuring, new leadership

Staff report
Posted : Monday May 11, 2009 10:38:35 EDT

JACKSONVILLE, N.C. — Marine Corps Forces Special Operations Command is redesignating two of its companies as battalions, officials said in a news release.

During a ceremony Monday at Camp Lejeune, N.C., Companies A and B of the Marine Special Operations Advisor Group will be renamed 3rd and 4th Marine Special Operations battalions. The battalions will become the group’s two primary subordinate commands.

This redesignation is part of the command’s overall plan to standardize its four battalions, the release said.

After that ceremony, MarSOC officials will recognize a change of command. Lt. Col. Christian Nicewarner, 3rd MSOB commander, will relinquish command to Lt. Col. Matthew Trollinger.
The bottom article has thier training

[bobdina]

General: MarSOC acceptance achieved

By Trista Talton - Staff writer
Posted : Thursday Jul 31, 2008 6:29:42 EDT

CAMP LEJEUNE, N.C. — After more than two years of quiet successes and some loud growing pains, the Corps’ spec ops force has gained acceptance among Marines and other special operations forces, its former commander said.

There’s been a cultural shift since Marine Corps Forces Special Operations Command’s February 2006 inception, Lt. Gen. Dennis Hejlik said in an interview shortly after relinquishing command Thursday to Maj. Gen. Mastin Robeson in a ceremony.

“I don’t hear that anymore. You know, ‘Why is there a MarSOC? Why are there Marines in special operations because all Marines are special?’ And that’s true. But this is a unique bunch. They train to that SOF standard and deploy throughout the world, then we bring them back home,” he said.

Hejlik, who was pinned with a third star in a private ceremony Friday before taking the helm at II Marine Expeditionary Force, said he constantly receives e-mails from SOF operators, specifically Green Berets and Navy SEALs, complimenting MarSOC Marines and sailors.

“They’ll send me an e-mail and say, ‘Hey, general, your Marines and sailors are good to go. We’ll fight alongside them or we’ll do foreign internal defense with them anytime, anywhere,’” he said. “To me, that is a total success story, because of the acceptance on the battlefield.”

And, he said, that acceptance has reached across the Corps and Special Operations Command.

“There is a perception out there, and I want to be very clear about this, that there is still friction between MarSOC, the Marine Corps, SOCom and the component,” Hejlik said. “There just is not. Cooperation and coordination between the Marine Corps and SOCom and MarSOC and the component has never been better, and I can only just see it getting better and better as we go through this.”

When problems worsened
Tensions between Marine, MarSOC and SOCom leaders grew last year after the Army general who headed U.S. Special Operations Command-Central Command kicked an entire Marine special operations company out of Afghanistan and later told reporters that a preliminary investigation indicated the Marines killed or wounded more than 40 Afghan civilians.

News of a suicide car bomb attack on a Fox Company platoon in Nangarhar province March 4, 2007, spread quickly, along with the allegations that the Marines indiscriminately fired on civilians.

Following a nearly monthlong hearing into the actions of the company’s commander and the platoon commander in January, Lt. Gen. Samuel Helland, head of Marine Corps Forces Central Command, determined the Marines acted appropriately.

MSOCs continue to operate in Afghanistan, one of 16 countries to which MarSOC Marines have deployed in 29 months. To date, MSOCs and special operations advisory groups have embarked on 51 operational deployments.

Recruiting for MarSOC
More than 1,800 Marines and sailors are in MarSOC. That’s about 80 percent of the total force of 2,500. The force has its own recruiting team, comprised of an officer, four staff noncommissioned officers and one NCO.

The recruiting team travels across the country, briefing units about MarSOC. Hejlik said recruiting is going so well that, for the first time, MarSOC will hold back-to-back assessment and selection classes this fall.

“And [recruiting] was a very tough process, frankly, when we first started,” he said.

Marines and sailors who get through the assessment and selection process endure a rigorous training pipeline. Marine Special Operations Advisor Groups have six months to become subject-matter experts in small-unit tactics, fires control, indirect fires, lifesaving skills and language skills.

MSOC Marines train about 18 months, including six with Marine expeditionary units. The training starts with individual skills, such as basic reconnaissance, jump school and dive school, then on to unit training, such as close-quarters combat and dynamic entry.

Hejlik maintains that, once a Marine or sailor’s MarSOC tour is up, they’ll be sent back to the general population.

“We’ve had some Marines already return to Mother Marine Corps, as we like to refer to it,” he said.

“The plan, the memorandum of agreement with Headquarters Marine Corps, is that we will keep the majority of operators for five years — that’s about 1,256 Marines. The rest of the Marines who are our support and maintenance, they will spend a normal three-year tour in MarSOC and then return to the Marine Corps. After a tour back in the Marine Corps, they’re going to come back into MarSOC

[ghost]

Awesome. Thanks for those posts. I appreciate all the help, and answers.

Thanks again!

[bobdina]

No problem.

[ghost]

By the way, where at in Florida, are you?

[bobdina]

Port St. John

[ghost]

Haha. No fucking way. I'm in Merritt Island.

[bobdina]

Small world huh I moved here 4 years ago from South Florida.

[ghost]

LOL. You came up from south Florida? Haha. I am originally from central Florida(Cocoa Beach), and then I moved down to Boynton Beach for 5 years, and then last November, I moved back up here.