Phuck Me What Next? F22 Raptor is phucked

[eaglethebeagle]

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Two F-22 Raptor pilots have said publicly that not only are they afraid to fly the most expensive fighter jets in American history, but the military has attempted to silence them and other F-22 pilots by threatening their careers.
"There have been squadrons that have stood down over concerns. And there's been threat of reprisals," F-22 pilot Josh Wilson told CBS News' "60 Minutes" (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18560_162-57427432/is-the-air-forces-f-22-fighter-jet-making-pilots-sick/) Sunday. "There's been threat of flying evaluation boards clipping our wings and doing ground jobs. And... in my case, potentially getting booted out of the Air Force.
"So right now there's an example being set of, 'Hey, if you speak up about safety, you're going to be out of the organization,'" Wilson said.
Despite the Air Force's glowing descriptions of the next-generation jet as America's future of air dominance, as an ABC News "Nightline" investigation broadcast last week (http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/exclusive-22-raptor-flyers-family-demands-truth-air/story?id=16253815) found, unknown problems with the plane's oxygen system have already contributed to the death of one pilot (http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/exclusive-22-raptor-flyers-family-demands-truth-air/story?id=16253815#.T6e8meh5GSo), the near-death of another and mid-air scares for dozens more (http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/22-fighter-pilots-fly-troubled-79-billion-jets/story?id=16250417).
READ Exclusive: Family Demands Truth in Air Force F-22 Pilot's Death (http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/exclusive-22-raptor-flyers-family-demands-truth-air/story?id=16253815)
Wilson and fellow F-22 pilot Jeremy Gordon, both veteran fighter pilots for the Virginia Air National Guard who came forward under whistleblower protection from Rep. Adam Kinzinger (R.-Ill.), have asked not to fly the F-22 anymore, according to CBS News, citing their concerns with the oxygen problem.
http://l1.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/XNnR_WOv40p19WVCk8vrWw--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7cT04NTt3PTE1MA--/http://twitter-badges.s3.amazonaws.com/follow_me-c.png (http://www.twitter.com/BrianRoss)
Gordon said that two weeks after he requested not to fly the jet, he was called before a board of officers.
"I was asked to make a decision that day whether I wanted to fly or find another line of work," he said.
Several current and former F-22 pilots contacted by ABC News for its investigation either did not respond or quickly declined to comment on the plane and two relatives of flyers told ABC News that the pilots had been instructed not to speak to the media on penalty of potentially losing their post with the F-22 -- a coveted position despite the safety concerns. One pilot, when initially contacted by ABC News for comment, agreed to speak on the record but only after he checked with the Air Force public affairs office. Since then, the pilot has not responded to any of ABC News' attempts to communicate.

Air Force spokesperson John Dorrian told ABC News he has no information about any pilots being explicitly told not to speak to the media about the Raptor and noted that several F-22 pilots have been made available to the press at Air Force events. Dorrian did say that if a member of the Air Force wishes to speak with the media as a representative of the Air Force, that engagement is conducted through the Air Force public affairs office, but whistleblowers are still protected.
"Corporately, the Air Force position is the Air Force is not going to tolerate any reprisal actions against whistleblowers," Dorrian said.
Since Wilson and Gordon are assigned to the Virginia Air National Guard, Dorrian said he did not have specific information on their case. Officials at the Virginia Air National Guard did not immediately return requests for comment for this report.
Top officials at the Air Force and Lockheed Martin refused to take part in one-on-one interviews with ABC News for its broadcast report, but the Air Force provided a statement last week in which it says the service is committed to "unparalleled dedication to flight safety."
"Flying America's premier fighter aircraft always entails risk but the Air Force has, and always will, take every measure to ensure the safety of our aircrews while delivering air superiority for the nation," the statement said. The Air Force has also stressed that reports of "hypoxia-like symptoms" are exceedingly rare -- more than two dozen compared to the thousands of flights flown without incident.
READ: Air Force's Full Statement in Response to ABC News Investigation (http://news.yahoo.com/Blotter/air-force-statement-abc-news-22-investigation/story?id=16260060)
Last week the Air Force officially received the last F-22 Raptor from defense contracting giant Lockheed Martin, completing an order of 187 planes that cost U.S. taxpayers an estimated $79 billion (http://www.gao.gov/products/GAO-12-400SP) -- meaning that including research, development and production among other costs, each plane has a price tag of more than $420 million. Despite being the most advanced fighters on the planet, none of the planes have been used on a combat mission since they went combat-ready in late 2005. Critics told ABC News that's because the jet was designed to fight rival, sophisticated fighters – an enemy that doesn't exist right now.
READ: Final F-22 Delivered, McCain Says $79B Jets Still Have No Mission (http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/final-22-fighter-delivered-sen-john-mccain-79b/story?id=16270127#.T6fEBeh5GSo)

F-22 Pilot Blamed in Fatal Crash After Plane Malfunction

Capt. Jeff Haney was flying the Air Force's next-generation stealth F-22 Raptor on a routine training mission in Alaska in November 2010 when a sudden malfunction cut off his oxygen completely (http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/air-force-blames-oxygen-deprived-pilot-22-crash/story?id=15162509#.T6FjoOh5GSo). Capt. Haney never made a distress call but took his plane into a dive and, a little over a minute later, crashed into the winter wilderness at faster than the speed of sound.
After a lengthy investigation, an Air Force Accident Investigation Board could not find the cause of the malfunction but determined "by clear and convincing evidence" that in addition to other factors, Haney was to blame for the crash because he was too distracted by his inability to breathe to fly the plane properly.
READ: Air Force's Accident Investigation Board Report (PDF) (http://news.yahoo.com/Blotter/page/air-force-accident-investigation-board-report-capt-jeff-16259909)

But Haney's sister, Jennifer, told ABC News in an exclusive interview (http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/exclusive-22-raptor-flyers-family-demands-truth-air/story?id=16253815) she believes her brother blacked out trying to save himself and said that by blaming him, the Air Force was attempting to deflect attention from the ongoing, mysterious oxygen problem with the costly planes.
"I don't agree with [the Air Force]. I think there was a lot more going on inside that cockpit," Jennifer Haney said. "A cover-up? I don't know. But there's something."
In at least 25 cases since 2008, F-22 pilots have reported experiencing "hypoxia-like symptoms" in mid-air, according to the Air Force. Last year the Air Force grounded the full fleet of F-22s (http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/77-billion-22-raptor-fleet-grounded-indefinitely/story?id=13545306) for nearly five months to investigate, but still no one knows what is going wrong, even as the planes are back in the air. Hypoxia is caused by a lack of oxygen to the brain and is characterized by dizziness, confusion, lack of judgment and, eventually, unconsciousness.
In one case before the grounding, a pilot became so disoriented that his plane dropped down and skimmed treetops before he managed to save himself and return to base, an Air Force spokesperson told ABC News. Presumably speaking of the same incident, Gordon told "60 Minutes" the pilot had to be told he had hit the trees -- he didn't remember doing it himself.
Wilson described experiencing apparent hypoxia while in the cockpit as a "surreal experience" and Gordon said the onset is "insidious."
"Some pilots will go the entire mission, land and not know anything went wrong," Gordon said.
To Jennifer Haney, every time an F-22 goes up, it's risking the life of its pilot. She spoke to ABC News because she said she couldn't stand to see another family go through what hers had.
"I know that the Air Force has said that they were very proud to have Jeff and are very sorry for our loss -- well then, in Jeff's name, fix this," she said. "We want to make sure Jeff did not die in vain -- that his death will mean something and that if it saves lives of pilots now, future pilots, then he died for the greater good or something."
The Air Force has already begun to enact changes to the jet in hopes of mitigating the oxygen problem, including adding pilot-monitoring equipment and improving the emergency oxygen system.
But for all their effort, the Air Force still doesn't have what Jennifer Haney said is most important both to her family and to the families of pilots that risk their lives every day at the controls of the F-22: answers.
"I believe Jeff deserves that. That was my baby brother and I believe he deserves that. He deserves the truth to be told as to what happened. Not anybody's guesses," she said. "He deserves the truth. He deserves honor and so do his little girls."
WATCH '60 Minutes': Is the Air Force's F-22 Fighter Jet Making Pilots Sick? (http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7407680n&tag=contentBody;storyMediaBox)





:angry:

[eaglethebeagle]

Give these to the Saudis and Indians.

[wormhole]

As a pilot who loves all aircraft - this is a show piece for American corruption.

[Sixx]

Crazy stuff

[jamieooh]

Mystery of F-22 illnesses grows

By Larry Shaughnessy
CNN

Even as the Air Force searches for the reason pilots are getting sick flying the F-22, a new mystery about the troubled stealth fighter jet has come to light: Why are mechanics on the ground getting sick in the plane as well?

The Air Force has been looking into a number of reports that pilots experienced "hypoxia-like symptoms" aboard F-22s since April 2008. Hypoxia is oxygen deficiency.

The Air Force reports 25 cases of such systems, including 11 since September, when the service cleared the F-22 fleet to return to flight after a four-month grounding.

The fleet was grounded in May 2011 so the service could check the hypoxia reports, but the order was lifted in September under a "return to fly" plan, with equipment modifications and new rules including daily inspections of the life-support systems.

"Early on in the return to fly we had five maintainers that reported hypoxia symptoms," Gen. Daniel Wyman, command surgeon for the Air Combat Command, said during a conference call with reporters Wednesday.

The maintainers are mechanics on the F-22's ground crews who sometimes have to be in the cockpit while the jet's engine is doing a ground run.

"The maintainers, when they are doing their ground run, are not on the mask, they are in the cockpit," Wyman said.

The problem with maintainers getting sick while on the ground throws a wrench into some of the theories about why at least 25 pilots have suffered hypoxia symptoms.

The Air Force experts trying to figure out the cause of the problem have pointed out that the F-22 flies higher and faster than its predecessors, the F-15 and F-16.

There has also been speculation that there perhaps could be a problem with the system that feeds oxygen to the pilot's mask while in flight.

Asked what is causing the symptoms in maintainers on the ground, not wearing a mask, Wyman said, "I can't answer that at this time."

Sunday, two F-22 pilots told CBS's "60 Minutes" that they would not fly the jet any more. One of the reasons they gave was that there is a problem with the carbon filter built into their mask to help remove contaminants from the air they breathe.

Wyman said that "a black dust was noted in some of the breathing hoses near the filters. We analyzed this dust and found it to be activated carbon."

But no activated carbon was found in "30 pilots who had their throat swabbed for testing."

Activated carbon is an inert form of charcoal that has been used in air filters for years.

Nonetheless, the Air Force has decided to remove carbon filters from the F-22 pilot masks.

The Air Force said Tuesday that no disciplinary action will be taken against the pilots for taking their concerns to "60 Minutes."

[eaglethebeagle]

In this situation do we get the manufacturer involved? Lockheed Martin should be held accountable for defects in this fighter. Shit with the money it cost the thing should be flawless and better than expected not causing something that makes it completly useless to operate.

The government needs to hold Lockheed to the fire and say this thing gets fixed on your dime now and with your own test pilots not our men in uniform. Why is this not being done? Are you telling me there is no warranty on a damn 420 million dollar fighter?

I understand the Air Force likely not wanting a secret issue that exposes major trouble with our best fighter aircraft to all our enemies but shit then get the problem fixed its been 2 years since that pilot died.

Get to the bottom of it and figure it out. I cant believe there is no way to decipher the issue. If you have men on the ground having issues then there is a problem not related to oxygen loss creating the symptoms.

Shit I love these planes they are beautiful and when working properly unequalled in the world but they lose their mystique when they are only good as giant paper weights.

[serpa6]

I use to work for a plant in which we produced the NBC warfare suits with ( carbon charcoal filter) there is a chemical called SMA that we used and some how when the right amount was a little to much the fumes where unbelievable I know,I used to mix the SMA and other chemicals to impregnate the filters We use to test every 5 rolls in which where 250 yrds long and 64 inches wide We use to have multiple failed tests in the lab when to much moisture use to get into the materiel before impregnation These filters we use to produce could easily be used for oxygent masks When ran what they called trials government reps where present and we had to document everything I started in this plant in 1988 and the Project was shut down for multiple reasons at radom times including this There was another procedure we did to keep the charcoal chemical from foaming and producing moisture itself Was by using pure ammonia an we use to add it into the batch of chemicals to stop the foam If anyone has worked with industrial ammonia you will know how powerful it is
Example Take 1 half gallon of bleach not bad right add in 1 oz of industrial strength ammonia there you have syrin gas
Well it is enough to knock someone out and him not knowing what happened We had one incident where an worker took a 5 gallon bucket that was empty on not washed no residue He thought is was clean took it to go get the ammonia only 1 qt of it We smelled the ammonia It was kept in another room big enough to put 10 cars in We rushed back there seen him on the ground got our filtered masks got him out shut the ammonia off He was in the hospital for 2 weeks to this day he still does not remember what happened. we used to be worried about our boys in the gulf war if the suits would work or not good thing they never had to use them
I swear this on my dads soul this happened and I am not bullshitting
The project was finally shut down in 1997 and no one knows why
Also after this plant shut its doors there was a corparation reorganisation one plant shut its doors in oct 1999 another around 2 yrs later there is only one still running today they print the camouflage for all our armed services along with I think the number is right 4 others through out the US

[veritas44]

They are even talking about ground crews that work on the f-22 experiencing hypoxia-like symptoms.


Serpa

ammonia and chlorine produces Chloramine Gas, still deadly but not nearly as deadly as sarin or GB.

[serpa6]

They are even talking about ground crews that work on the f-22 experiencing hypoxia-like symptoms.


Serpa

ammonia and chlorine produces Chloramine Gas, still deadly but not nearly as deadly as sarin or GB.
Thanks Vert I knew it produced a deadly gas Chlorimine gas still makes you sleep first and then you suffocate your lung tubes swell and makes you not breath that man would have been gone if we did not get to him in the time we did Thanks for the info Vert

[MadeInRu]

"After a lengthy investigation, an Air Force Accident Investigation Board could not find the cause of the malfunction but determined "by clear and convincing evidence" that in addition to other factors, Haney was to blame for the crash because he was too distracted by his inability to breathe to fly the plane properly."

ehhhhhh how is he to blame if he couldn't breathe properly.... They should just stop that bullshit and find the isue...

[eaglethebeagle]

"After a lengthy investigation, an Air Force Accident Investigation Board could not find the cause of the malfunction but determined "by clear and convincing evidence" that in addition to other factors, Haney was to blame for the crash because he was too distracted by his inability to breathe to fly the plane properly."

ehhhhhh how is he to blame if he couldn't breathe properly.... They should just stop that bullshit and find the isue...


yeah that makes all the sense right... the pilot is at fault because he wasn't able to breath because the aircraft is defective so that is his fault.... thats fking as dumb as it gets. How about we have a 420 million aircraft that needs to be taken apart piece by piece and examined entirely to see what exactly is malfunctioning. I wouldn't grant Lockheed another deal until they figure out the issue with this plane.

[serpa6]

Even as the Air Force searches for the reason pilots are getting sick flying the F-22, a new mystery about the troubled stealth fighter jet has come to light: Why are mechanics on the ground getting sick in the plane as well?

The Air Force has been looking into a number of reports that pilots experienced "hypoxia-like symptoms" aboard F-22s since April 2008. Hypoxia is oxygen deficiency.

AS for the Ground crew's Maybe a combination of any fluid that spills on the stealth coating on the plane when working on it
For pilots and I need windmill on this if the skin of the plane would heat up at pass the speed of sound and started to breakdown the stealth coating could it give off a odor less gas that could cause the hypoxia Just my thoughts
PS The stealth 117 had it share of crashes in development they say it was pilot error now it become unbelivable

[shatto]

I simply cannot understand why things go wrong. There should be no mistakes and errors and nobody should ever be hurt and made uncomfortable.

[eaglethebeagle]

Defense Secretary Leon Panetta has demanded the Air Force take measures to make America's most expensive fighter plane, the F-22 Raptor, safer for its pilots in light of an ongoing, potentially deadly problem with the plane's oxygen system, a Pentagon spokesperson said today.
As a recent ABC News investigation found, for more than four years pilots for the F-22 Raptor have reported at least 25 incidents of experiencing "hypoxia-like symptoms" while at the controls of the $420 million-plus-a-pop jet. Hypoxia is caused by a lack of oxygen to the brain and is characterized by dizziness, confusion and disorientation.
READ ABC News Investigation: Fatal Flaws With the F-22 Raptor
Among other precautions, Panetta ordered the Air Force to expedite the installation of an automatic emergency back-up oxygen system to the planes, spokesperson George Little told reporters.
Currently, pilots who believe they're experiencing oxygen system problems have to manually reach for a ring in a cramped corner of the cockpit to activate the emergency back-up system. The activation ring itself was already such a problem that the Air Force recently re-designed it for the entire fleet to make it more accessible.
In one fatal incident in November 2010, the Air Force said one of its pilots, Capt. Jeff Haney, had been too distracted by trying to activate the manual back-up system after a malfunction cut off his primary oxygen completely and he accidentally flew his plane into the ground.
READ Exclusive: Family Demands Truth in Air Force F-22 Pilot's Death
One of two pilots who recently spoke out about the F-22's dangerous problems on CBS News' "60 Minutes" said that he once experienced such disorientation due to apparent hypoxia in mid-air that he struggled to even locate the manual emergency oxygen system.
Panetta also ordered flight restrictions on the F-22 "effective immediately" that require it to stay relatively close to possible landing strips in case of emergency. In Alaska, the F-22 will no longer fly long-distance training missions, and instead those missions will be taken on by older F-15 and F-16 fighters, Air Force spokesperson Lt. Col. John Dorrian said. Panetta also directed the Air Force to provide him regular updates on the progress in the investigation into the planes' problems.
Air Force Grounds Full $79 Billion Fleet, No Root Cause Found
Despite multiple investigations into the plane's oxygen system and a grounding of the entire $79 billion fleet for nearly five months last year, the Air Force has been unable to determine the source of the problem.

The Air Force admitted earlier this month that it was such a concern that a "very small number" of pilots requested not to fly or to leave the F-22 program altogether.
The Air Force has long maintained that the rate of incidents is exceedingly rare -- 25 compared to the thousands of missions flown without incident -- and has been working hard to determine what is wrong.
The Air Force said in March it planned to implement an automatic emergency back-up oxygen system as one of 14 recommendations made by a scientific advisory board convened to investigate -- ultimately unsuccessfully -- the root cause of the hypoxia-like symptoms. Pentagon spokesperson Capt. John Kirby said the Secretary knows the Air Force is working hard but wanted to "add his muscle" to help find answers.
Despite multiple forward deployments, none of the jets in the $79 billion fleet have ever flown a combat operation for the United States since going combat-ready in late 2005.


panetta is talking about it now so everyone rest easy he will get this taken care of......lol what a clown where has he been for the last 2 or 3 years since this began? what a clown...

[eaglethebeagle]

Lockheed Awarded Millions to Make Own F-22 Raptor Jet Safer

By LEE FERRAN | ABC News – 16 hours ago
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Lockheed Awarded Millions to Make Own F-22 Raptor Jet Safer (ABC News)
The same major defense contractor that is being sued by the wife of a dead Air Force pilot for allegedly making "defective" F-22 fighter jets has been awarded nearly $20 million from the U.S. government to install an automatic emergency backup system on the troubled plane -- a system that the pilot's family says would've saved his life in the first place.
The Air Force announced late Tuesday that F-22 manufacturer Lockheed Martin won a $19 million contract to replace the manual oxygen backup system with an automatic one on America's fleet of stealth F-22 Raptor fighter jets, already the most expensive fighters in history at an estimated $420 million each. The contract marks the second time the Air Force has awarded Lockheed Martin a multi-million dollar deal to help resolve a safety problem with the plane it developed.
The announcement came a month after an ABC News "Nightline" investigation into the F-22 -- a plane that despite its sophistication has never been used in combat -- reported that unexplained problems with the plane's oxygen system had caused pilots in at least 25 incidents since 2008 to experience symptoms of oxygen deprivation in mid-air and had contributed to the death of veteran F-22 pilot Capt. Jeff Haney.
READ Exclusive: Family Demands Truth in Air Force F-22 Pilot's Death
Haney was killed in a crash in Alaska in November 2010 shortly after a malfunction in the plane shut off his oxygen system and he was unable to activate the manual backup system currently used in the stealth jets.
An extended investigation report on the crash obtained by ABC News through a Freedom of Information Act request revealed that the Air Force concluded Haney was distracted by his inability to breathe and was therefore at fault for the crash, even though the Air Force acknowledged the unexplained malfunction and admitted that the manual backup system activation ring that Haney would have relied on would have been difficult to locate and properly deploy.

Jeff's wife, Anna, filed suit in mid-March 2012 against Lockheed Martin and several other major defense contractors involved in the plane's production for wrongful death, alleging the planes are "dangerous and defective." Lockheed Martin told ABC News at the time that while Haney's death was a tragedy, the company "does not agree" with Anna Haney's claims and would fight them in court.
Had Haney been in a plane with an automatic oxygen backup system, he would still be alive today, his sister and family spokesperson, Jennifer Haney, told ABC News in an exclusive interview.
"It would've saved Jeff's life," she said after Defense Secretary Leon Panetta urged the Air Force to speed up the implementation of the new system last month. "I can't believe [the Air Force] thought to begin with that that system that they had was sufficient... That, to me, was just ignorant."
READ Exclusive: Panetta's F-22 Raptor Order Too Late to Save Pilot, Sister Says

Tuesday's announcement also marks the second time the Air Force has agreed to pay Lockheed Martin millions to help with safety concerns surrounding the plane. In September 2011, just days after the Air Force lifted a five month fleet-wide grounding of the F-22s, the Air Force awarded Lockheed a nearly $25 million contract for services including their assistance in investigating the mystery oxygen problems.
But millions of dollars later, the mystery remains. On the same day Panetta ordered the Air Force to expedite installation of the backup system, he also ordered the Air Force to corral the planes and restrict their missions so they are always near a landing strip, just in case something goes wrong again.
The jets are still on forward deployment, however, and the Air Force claims that neither the mystery problem nor the flight restrictions have curbed F-22 operations. The service has long maintained that while they are aggressively investigating the cause of the apparent oxygen deprivation and have taken a number of measures to ensure pilot safety, the oxygen-related safety incidents themselves are exceedingly rare – 25 known instances compared to the thousands of successful flights flown.
The new automatic backup system is scheduled to begin appearing in planes in December but will not be installed on the entire fleet until 2014, according to the Air Force.

[Stark]

eagle you are allowed to say fuck, just wanted to mention that....

Good interesting reads

[ErisKillton]

eagle you are allowed to say fuck, just wanted to mention that....

Good interesting reads

The majority of members on this site are gentlemen Stark.

[Stark]

The majority of members on this site are gentlemen Stark.

No they are not Eris, I know thats what you want to believe but you are wrong!!!!!

I tried to be a gentlemen for most of my life, held open doors for woman - greetings tipped the hat *morning maam* all that stuff - you girls do NOT appreciate to be treated kindly - hold a door open for a woman today and she will most likely give you a snotty look ala *I can open my own doors thank you very much - So I don't even try anymore, last time I had a fight with a lady who though I shouldn't have taken "her" parkingspot and she asked me tears of frustration running down her chubby cheeks - WHY DO YOU HAVE TO BE SO MEAN!!!!
And I replied laughing!!!!
Because its FUN and I hate every single emancipated cunt on this planet!!!!
























I just made that up... never happened.

[Pittsburgh]

hold a door open for a woman today and she will most likely give you a snotty look ala *I can open my own doors thank you very much -

According to these wackadoo's, it's "potentinally harmful" to open doors for women...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2003821/Feminists-claim-men-hold-open-doors-women-SEXIST-chivalrous.html#ixzz1x6kowu8khttp://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2003821/Feminists-claim-men-hold-open-doors-women-SEXIST-chivalrous.html#ixzz1PRFLYX6Q

I still open doors for women, but this definately makes me think twice.

[Stark]

According to these wackadoo's, it's "potentinally harmful" to open doors for women...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2003821/Feminists-claim-men-hold-open-doors-women-SEXIST-chivalrous.html#ixzz1x6kowu8khttp://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2003821/Feminists-claim-men-hold-open-doors-women-SEXIST-chivalrous.html#ixzz1PRFLYX6Q

I still open doors for women, but this definately makes me think twice.

link is exactly the point why I don't do it anymore - I LOVE having discussions with feminists - lucky me due to my mother being an ex. hardcore feminist i am in no short supply of great discussions.

Basically I fucking hate two faced people in general, all this crap of freeing the woman and doing it for the woman of this world - bullshit!!! every single one of these clamlickers have their own personal agenda.

[Clodius]

The majority of members on this site are gentlemen Stark.
I know I'm not. There's a difference being civil and being gentlemanly. Holding the door open for someone is considerate. Holding the door open for a hot chick requires a blow job in reciprocation.

[Stark]

I know I'm not. There's a difference being civil and being gentlemanly. Holding the door open for someone is considerate. Holding the door open for a hot chick requires a blow job in reciprocation.

Lol you just went up about 10 fold in my cool book :D

[ErisKillton]

Hmmm... I think you took my meaning of gentlemen wrong.....

I will explain more in a different thread in a bit because I dont want to derail beagles post as it is a good post.

[eaglethebeagle]

LOL I did hold back on the fuck on this post. Mostly because I think I say it way too much most of the time. I think all men are gentlemen around their moms but with their wives that's a different story.:evilgrin:

[eaglethebeagle]

F-22 Fighter Pilots Told to Ditch Pressure Vests; Mystery Problem Unsolved
By Lee Ferran | ABC News – 6 hrs ago
RELATED CONTENT

F-22 Fighter Pilots Told to Ditch …
Pilots for the U.S. Air Force's F-22 Raptor fighter jets have been ordered to take off a portion of their flying suits, specifically the G-suit vest, during routine training missions as the service continues to investigate a rare but mysterious breathing problem some pilots have experienced in the $420 million-a-pop jets.
As a recent ABC News investigation found, in at least 25 cases since 2008 F-22 pilots have reported experiencing symptoms of oxygen deprivation in mid-flight. In one case, a pilot became so disoriented that his plane actually skimmed the tops of trees before he managed to save himself. Another pilot, Capt. Jeff Haney, was killed in a crash after an unexplained malfunction cut off his oxygen supply during a training mission in November 2010.
READ Exclusive: Family Demands Truth in Air Force F-22 Pilot's Death
Despite grounding the whole $79 billion fleet of jets for five months last year, the Air Force has been unable to discover the source of the problem.
Air Force spokesperson Tadd Scholtis told ABC News today that the G-suit vest, designed to help pilots' bodies cope with extreme G-forces during maneuvers, "appears to be contributing to breathing difficulties" for pilots, but is not believed to be the root cause of the prior incidents. It is being removed, he said, because of some "vulnerability and reliability issues."
Last month Defense Secretary Leon Panetta ordered new flight restrictions for the F-22 while the breathing problem remains under investigation, but the Air Force has claimed those orders have not curbed the planes' operations. Panetta also ordered the Air Force to expedite the installation of an automatic emergency backup system, a safety measure that Haney's family told ABC News would have saved his life.
The F-22 Raptor, which is made by defense contracting giant Lockheed Martin, officially went combat operational in December 2005 but has yet to see an actual combat mission. From Iraq and Afghanistan to last year's U.S.-led no-fly zone over Libya, the Air Force said it simply has not needed the advanced capabilities of the most expensive jet fighter in history.