thoughts American apaches? - a growing unease at mixing politics with prayer

[gazzthompson]

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSBRE82K1GN20120321?irpc=932

Sorry, mobile version as I'm on my phone. Should be able to change it somehow.

[762happy]

We have had God with our nation from its birth. if you will notice Europe is getting away from God and is falling apart. i know your cant appreciate this in your youth but God be with you and your family.

[gazzthompson]

Europe is having financial problems, as is the US and the world. The most successful EU countries are mostly least religious. And I appreciate your last comment, even though I don't believe.

[Sixx]

Gazz, are you 100% sure you are atheist? You will never believe in a God right?
I know the whole "no atheists in foxholes" saying is bullshit.....I have been around atheist that are fearless when shit hits the fan.....

But are you truly atheist? Never prayed at all? Never called out to a imaginary higher power to help you get through something painful? never uttered the words "oh my god"?
You are true to your conviction right?



When I was younger I had a buddy that always preached atheism. He'd harass my other friends because their father was a chaplain in the Army and they too had strict religious beliefs.....
Almost every day he would rag on them about their fake god. He wanted people to respect his views about atheism, but he did not show respect in return.

One night after we got off of work we all piled into a car and headed out to the club to get some pussy and get wasted. It was during a snow storm with really shitty visibility and the driver slid off of the road and rolled the vehicle...

My atheist buddy hopped out and like a moron and tried to flag down a passing car.....that car lost control as well and struck him. It must have flung him 30-40 feet.....
We couldn't see and could not locate him right away, visibility was less than 2 ft. We started to hear moans...and heard him shouting "Oh god, Jesus please help me" repeatedly and then we found the blood trail.

A rescue unit came and he was crying to God and mommie all the way to the ER. He lost a leg and to this day....he is a Christian.
Funny how some people are.


I hope you are a true Atheist and not some hypocrite.



Back on the posted topic,
I think prayer or any type of religious shit should be kept out of politics as not everyone in our nation is religious or practices Christianity.
I also feel that work environments should be neutral and religion free.

I used to get real annoyed while in the USAF when people would pull the religion card to try to get out of work or interfere with the duty schedule.
So-Called Muslims and converts in the military are notorious for that shit.

Most of the time we never got to sit down in a dinning area to eat....but when we did it was a hassle because I had to respectfully wait until the rest of my team members finished praying at the table before I could take a bite. There was always one asshole that took extra long to pray.

Motherfucker, I just want to eat...pray on your own time...not mine. I mean we only got like 10 minutes to eat and you are taking 4-5 minutes to pray?
Fuck You. respect goes both ways.

[Clodius]

... We started to hear moans...and heard him shouting "Oh god, Jesus please help me" repeatedly...A rescue unit came and he was crying to God and mommie all the way to the ER. He lost a leg and to this day....

When I was in the mil I was in a jeep (yes WWII era Willie's) that got flipped. Luckily it was one that was equipped with a Milan firing column which acted as a roll bar. My foot was under the seat and got folded in 2, the boot was torn all the way around and there was frothy Monty Pythonesque blood pouring out. I shit myself. I yelled and screamed, cursed, and squirmed around on the ground in the middle of the French Alps, freezing, while thinking my foot is gone or its gonna be gone. I'm sure I invoked the sky fairy's name, and his sons...I'm not just atheist, I'm anti theist. I don't know how anyone can come to this site and see some of the shit that goes on around the planet in the sky fairy's name and then claim that they are also sky fairy believers. We are, as is just about any other lifeforms on this planet genetically predisposed to self preservation and have a primordial fear of the unknown. So a none believer invoking the name of a sky fairy is not proof of the sky fairy's existence but proof of the primordial fear of the unknown's existence.

Oh and just an FYI. If there is a sky fairy and I get to meet him I'm gonna punch him in the teeth!

[gazzthompson]

I am a "true" atheist. I've never prayed, never asked help from "above". I've also been in near death situations, though not as bad as your friends.

I do how ever say "oh god" (when fucking the girlfriend for example) , as its a modern cultural idiom devoid of any real meaning now. I also celebrate Christmas, because presents and a big ass turkey dinner .

And thanks for the comment regarding the subject.

[Sixx]

@ Clodius
Ouch that sounds painful


Oh and just an FYI. If there is a sky fairy and I get to meet him I'm gonna punch him in the teeth!
Hehehe you and me both....


I know and understand we (well most of us) are genetically predisposed for self-preservation and fear the unknown.
To me, it just seems stupid and hypocritical if you are an atheist and are in a bind.....to start rambling and praying to god for help. If you do not believe...then do not let those words slip out of your mouth.
It seems kinda pussy to pray for help "just in case"

How does that work? I know if I do not believe in something, I'm not going to tailor my views/beliefs to the situation just in case I'm wrong.

[Sixx]

I do how ever say "oh god" (when fucking the girlfriend for example)
Hehehehe


And I agree with the rest of your post.....

[brightgoo]

I am a "true" atheist. I've never prayed, never asked help from "above". I've also been in near death situations, though not as bad as your friends.

I do how ever say "oh god" (when fucking the girlfriend for example) , as its a modern cultural idiom devoid of any real meaning now. I also celebrate Christmas, because presents and a big ass turkey dinner .

And thanks for the comment regarding the subject.

As a true Atheist, where do your morals come from? I know you have plenty, many morals, I have read enough of your comments to say that.

As a Christian my morals come from God, I mean The Sky Fairy. ( didnt want to lose you here :)

Because frankly your morals sound alot like Christian morals, and if so that would be subjective, right?

I'm trying to understand Atheism more. :)

[eaglethebeagle]

Interesting about the respect issue being brought up here.

Did any of you know the kid that caused shit because he wouldnt stand for the Pledge of Allegiance in school?

You know his parents and the kid dont believe in God and so fuck saying the pledge then right?


I say fuck you back and dont bitch about God and religion just shut up and be happy the people who believe have done so in the name of God and the inate freedoms God has given us as man.

That is why America exist so that no ruling man or government can take away your God given rights.


Its ok I am not upset with you fellas here and your feelings toward myself or other Christians. I just find the hypocrisy in things and then point it out.

:USA:

:thumbsup:

[Sixx]

Eagle are you on drugs? And I'm not talking about marijuana
What kind of incoherent rant was that?


In America, you simply cannot force someone to be religious or patriotic.
That is why we are American.

You respect the Constitution and the bill of rights yes?
Or do you just cherry pick what sounds good to you and suits your needs?


How are your rights on religion being infringed upon?....I do not understand.

[Sixx]

1892
"I pledge allegiance to my flag and the republic for which it stands: one nation indivisible with liberty and justice for all."

1892 to 1923
"I pledge allegiance to my flag and to the republic for which it stands: one nation indivisible with liberty and justice for all."

1923 to 1924
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States and to the republic for which it stands: one nation indivisible with liberty and justice for all."

1924 to 1954
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands; one nation indivisible with liberty and justice for all."

1954 to Present
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."


"In God We Trust" was adopted as the official motto of the United States in 1956 as an alternative or replacement to the original motto of E Pluribus Unum, adopted when the Great Seal of the United States was created and adopted in 1782



hmmmmm.......

[eaglethebeagle]

I am not sure I follow your response. My take is on this issue of respect that needs to be shown goes both ways. Respect religion and the freedom of religion. I respect your right to be a non believer. Yet you should stand and say the pledge of allegiance out of respect for your country and the religious grounds that this country was founded. Please I have been down this road before with gazz and others I am sure. Atheist are trying to proclaim that they need to be respected yet they bash religion and those who believe. Look at clodius his great leader hitchens. That guy shows total disrespect for religion. You all here calling God or Jesus the Sky fairy. So its ok to be a hypocrite just understand when you get flak from people about your respect argument.

God is ingrained in this country( America ) there is no way to deny it. Again I want to hear the argument again that our founding fathers were atheist and not religious I laugh harder than any other time in my life when I hear atheist make that proclamation.

[Clodius]

Its quite simple. The cronies of the sky fairy have been steadily encroaching, undermining, and generally imposing their "morals" on the rest of us.

[Sixx]

But eagle, I DO believe in God.

And for the Sky fairy, that is their choice. Why hate them because they have different opinions and lifestyles?
After all we are all human and individually differ from one another.

But it's ok for you to hate and talk shit about Islam.....but you cannot take criticism regarding Christianity?
How many Americans are Muslim? Atheists? etc? After all they are American......AMERICAN. Are they not allowed to have the same rights as you?


You bring up the founding fathers a lot......did you know they actively grew marijuana and smoked it? I'm not talking about industrial hemp. Psychoactive marijuana.
Our founding fathers were potheads and encouraged others to grow it for pleasure and industrial purposes.

But to you, marijuana is the devil.....but you'll hammer down some beer.


Cherry picking......





For the record, I DO believe in God.....I hate organized religion.
I do not like homosexuals, but respect their right to marriage
I HATE muslims, I don't care for Jews. I really do not like Catholics
I hate hardcore rightwingers and leftists.
I hate big brother...I hate gun grabbers..
I hate Obama, I hate GW Bush
I hate abortion(when used as birth control)
I don't like Cops, but respect what they do
I love marijuana.

As for the homos, people and religions I hate......I respect their choice to live their life as they see fit. It's not my life and I cannot do anything about it anyway.....

Crazy huh?

I'm sure there are tons of people that do not agree with my beliefs and lifestyle.
But guess what, I'm American and my rights to do so are protected just as theirs.


Eagle do you like porno?

[gazzthompson]

As a true Atheist, where do your morals come from? I know you have plenty, many morals, I have read enough of your comments to say that.

As a Christian my morals come from God, I mean The Sky Fairy. ( didnt want to lose you here :)

Because frankly your morals sound alot like Christian morals, and if so that would be subjective, right?

I'm trying to understand Atheism more. :)

Good question, I get my morals from a rational consideration from the possible consequences of my actions, my culture and my upbringing. Its been bred into us from evolution, toddlers who cant even speak let alone know of jesus (or any other god etc) attempt to help , comfort other toddlers in pain and trouble. Animals do the same. I enjoy helping people, i have no need to inflict pain or suffering on others because this would make me sad that ive cause this on my fellow species.

The idea of morals without god is quite silly to be honest, its insulting too our species . morality has been thought out, reasoned , argued and discussed for thousands of years . Infact, most of todays morality seems completely contradictory of most religions (No slavery, Equal woman rights etc) all of these things are recent moral codes implemented to our societies. It seem secular morals has been dragging religions kicking and screaming into the moral world for thousands of years.

I ask religious people who ask this question, without fear of punishment from god... would you go around widely killing and raping people? if the only reason people dont rape and pillage is fear of punishment, then they are not very moral people to begin with.

[Clodius]

Hitchens on morality


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQcGXBo8HP8

[eaglethebeagle]

Sixx I agree with your points totally. You are free to do as you wish in America to the fullest extent of the law. So there is where the rubber meets the road isnt it. Our laws and how they come to be. That is really what all this boils down to. You personally wish to have legal weed. Others may wish for that not to ever be true. I personally like beer and beer is currently legal but can cause you some loss of freedom if you are found driving while under the influence. So to that point some of you dont like religion or republicans because they stand for laws that go against your wishes or desires.

I dislike liberals because they want to implement laws or change America into a country more like Europe or another existing nation. America is truly unique for freedoms and things we have and mostly take for granted.

I really personally dont care if you smoke weed or even if you are involved in crime. That is each persons own choice and that person may live their entire life doing illegal drugs and committing crime without ever being arrested or even looked at by a cop.

As long as the drug user or criminal doesn't tread on me or my family I could give a shit what other people do. Now what I am talking about is laws that do tread on me. Laws that dont exist that are being put in place that are going to tread on me and or my family in the future. I cant help you get your legalization of pot and if I could become more involved in how laws are added or subtracted I would be looking at higher( no pun ...yes pun intended) priorities in the order of freedoms being removed or sidestepped.

I dont think as long as we have been a nation that Christians are enemy number one to most Americans. It honestly has been Christians are at the front of the line in keeping our freedoms in place. I dont feel like even spelling this out for some of you will help you understand but I do admit I will continue to type away here from time to time to see if I can say it so some way that will eventually be undertstood.

Religion is not your enemy even if your an atheist. What religious(Christian) president has ever attacked the atheist or non Christians in America?

I dont care about the founding fathers growing weed or smoking it. Yes it may have been acceptable then just like slavery was acceptable as well. Do you feel that we should still have slavery because that is a freedom we once had?

We as humans learn and try to advance ourselves to the benefit of all mankind. I think it is still legal to smoke cigarettes even though it has been proven to cause multiple health problems even cancer. Not to mention that cigarette companies treat their customers like lab mice by adding addictive chemicals to make you want to buy their shitty product until your dead or nearly dead.

Yes I drink beer and it isnt healthy in many ways for you and is dangerous if you try to drive while intoxicated. I am someone who is a very moderate beer drinker. I literally can count on one hand how many times I drink a beer in a month. If I drink more than a six pack in a months time it must be my birthday or the 4th of July or some other uncommon event.


@gazz your point about children learning while they are still not aware of God is true and untrue. There are many kids that get the shit beat out of them at that early age and they learn abuse and then pass it on to their offspring. So it is dependent upon if the parent or guardian is in right mind if that child learns evil or good. I would hazard a guess that statistically the chances of a child being raised in loving nurturing home goes way up when their parents are Christian than muslim or atheist. I have seen the muslims beat the shit out of their kids as well as their wives(plural).

One final thing that I will say as I need to go. Some of you reason that there is no God because how does God allow these horrible things to happen on earth. Well I myself have asked that question in my past. The reason that bad things happen are because this world is not meant to be ideal by God. It is earth a temporary point in our existence.

You have free will to do good or evil.


The Bible says love your enemy. It is difficult isnt it. It seems that it is in our nature to find fault and be negative towards others. I am guilty of being a jackass quite often. What good does it do and what is accomplished by it? Nothing.

[brightgoo]

((((I get my morals from a rational consideration from the possible consequences of my actions, my culture and my upbringing. Its been bred into us from evolution, toddlers who cant even speak let alone know of jesus (or any other god etc) attempt to help , comfort other toddlers in pain and trouble. Animals do the same. I enjoy helping people, i have no need to inflict pain or suffering on others because this would make me sad that ive cause this on my fellow species.

The idea of morals without god is quite silly to be honest, its insulting too our species . morality has been thought out, reasoned , argued and discussed for thousands of years . Infact, most of todays morality seems completely contradictory of most religions (No slavery, Equal woman rights etc) all of these things are recent moral codes implemented to our societies. It seem secular morals has been dragging religions kicking and screaming into the moral world for thousands of years.

I ask religious people who ask this question, without fear of punishment from god... would you go around widely killing and raping people? if the only reason people dont rape and pillage is fear of punishment, then they are not very moral people to begin with.[/QUOTE]))))))













So your morals sound as if they are subjective? So I truly don't understand your argument of how you can think that morality is a part of our evolution, there is no scientific evidence to support that. The only reason morals would purposefully be engrained in our DNA, would be because a Higher Being (Creator) put them there.

To me this makes your points of animals and toddlers, just more proof that there is a God.

Your first paragraph, as an Atheist, makes me see that its a good thing you were brought up in a good loveing family, and that your community/culture taught you well. Because otherwise, if you had grown up in a non-loveing family, and bad place to live you would be different. Maybe to the better or maybe to the worse. You are subjective to what ever environment you are raised in, is what I'm understanding from your statements.

So lets do a hypothetical on your first paragraph. What if there was a global economic meltdown, and anacrchy ensued. It became normal for people to rob each other at gun point for food. Would this be right or wrong? This would be a social norm, so as I understand an Aetheist would or wouldn't assign moral values to robbing people at gunpoint.
Who would you rather see at the end of a dark alley, while holding a bag full of groceries? A Christian, who has objective morals that come from God that says in no case, robbing people at gun point, for any reason, is right. Or an Atheist, who's subjective morals, tell him depending on the circumstance that robbing people, might or might not be right. Because remember, in this scenario it's a normal practice for people to do so.


Paragraph #2, sentence 1 - Again one could argue at least intelligent design with this sentence. Because are we engrained with morals just because of a fluke. Is there an alternate universe where empathy (as you are argueing) isn't the number one characteristic of species? sentence 3 - LOL Gazz, come on bud. I dont know how much time an Atheist sits around learning my religion, ... but ... I really dont understand what your trying to say? sentence 4 (last) - Thats sad, it seems that way to you. I'm sure you have many examples of atrocities done in the name of my religion. Everything can be used for good or evil, and bad people have used religion and the ignorance of followers to do bad things. ie; Crusades


3rd Paragraph - I would again point out that if morality is automatically engrained in all of us, then a architect or designer purposefully placed it there.

I appreciate you teaching me your beliefs, and I hope I can sensibly communicate some of mine. :)

[gazzthompson]

We are all products of our environment, and too an extent everything is subjective."morality" at a basic level (not killing each other, empathy , caring for our own kind) are favored and "selected"by natural selection , group selection because it favors a population (survival of the fittest). Observed and noted here: According to Mic Shermer, the following characteristics are shared by humans and other social animals (apes, dolphins elephants etc)



"attachment and bonding, cooperation and mutual aid, sympathy and empathy, direc indirect reciprocity, altruism and reciprocal altruism, conflict resolution and peacema deception and deception detection, community concern and caring about what others about you, and awareness of and response to the social rules of the group".

This is clearly observable, go to a zoo or watch a documentary on social animals. There is a reason social animals are the most successful. What we would call moral or good is observed in the natural environment constantly, the perfect example off the top of my head would be dogs. Today, a dog will happily die for you... thousand years ago he would have eaten you.

Your hypothetical doesn't make much sense to be honest. But eitherway, either choice would be a risk. Christians are not perfect, atheists are not perfect. Both kill, both rape,both steal. The atheist as a human , a social creature has just as much chance to cooperate with me than a Christian.


then a architect or designer purposefully placed it there.

The "architect" being natural selection, evolution, and out environment (upbringing, culture)

TL:DR morals are an evolutionary necessity for advanced societies.

A question, what does the bible say about rape, woman rights, slavery and homosexuality. Compare that to what advanced society says (or is striving for).

[brightgoo]

Interesting to say the least.


I will get back to you on why Jesus would only rape 1 woman a day, he thought any more would be excessive. I'll get those verses to you though since you show interest. :)

[gazzthompson]

My point with the bible verses is, as far as I understand peoples view/attitude of the bible has changed. Isn't that the main defence when compared to Islam? that its been "modernized" , or that certain rules are outdated and not suitable for our time? Things like stoning people as punishment, working on the sabbath, slavery being okay, beating slaves , holy wars, wearing clothes with more than 1 material (or some weird rule) is wrong , equal women rights , homosexuality etc etc.

These have all been adapted to suit modern times by secular thinking outside of, and in most cases contradictory of the bible. Homosexuality being an obvious one, many societies deem homosexuality as normal and fine. This is a moral change that has happened outside of, and in clear contradiction of the bible. How is that possible if the bible is the source of morality?

[brightgoo]

I should not had assumed we were on "same page". I thought you were kidding around, trying to use old testament for your confutation, ... but I see your not.

OK here it goes, the King James Bible (probably most accepted and/or recognized translation) has a Old Testament and New Testament. Old Testament was translated from Hebrew to English, and New Testament was translated from Greek to English. All translated by a total of 47 scholars, not by "King James".

Yes, there are MANY wierd things done in Old Testament. My denomination has never used or even considered using the Old Testament as examples of what to do. LoL. But hence the reason called "Old".
It has ALWAYS been considered a History of Jewish people and also, of prophecies to come. I could see your concern, if you thought that. :)

My denomination worships Jesus and God. Jesus was a Jew, and His ushering in a new era, is what ultimately killed Him. Jesus was brought to the Earth for the sole purpose of a sacrifice, to take away all peoples sins. So, Jesus prophecy is ultimately fulfilled, by being arrested and dying on the Cross for his views.

We (Christians) are commanded by God (I think in Book of Corinthians) to do, as Jesus says to do, in his teachings.

When Jesus died, the curtain (that seperated Holy ordained men, from the front, where "common" people came in) in the Tabernacle (Temple) was physically torn from top to bottom, symbolizing that everyone had same access to God, instead of just a select few (priests), and that, the end of earthly man made miracles (ie: Moses parting the Red Sea), and also God would not talk, one on one, with earthly beings (as he used to) and so on. It was a level playing field for eveyone.

In short Jesus was really what one might consider a philosopher. His philosophy is love your fellow man no matter what, be kind always, do not judge, respect for your neighbor, empathy in general.

Obviously, Brightgoo can not say it all about the Bible in 4 sentences but Jesus literally "did not have a bad bone in his body" no matter what you did to him. Forgiveness always. :)

[brightgoo]

I have been meaning to add 2 points

1st Clodius, sounds like you should have thanked God, that Milan pedestal was put on properly


2nd Pzycho Sixx (Founding Fathers) You are right, and the Declaration of Independance was written on hemp for a reason, and Ben Franklin wore nothing but hemp clothes. Hemp/Mary Jane were have a fundamental place in Americas history; definately.

Where I grew up in Tenn, the Polks (one later became Pres) had these huge mansions from profits, where they grew nothing but hemp for miles and miles back in the early 1800's. They had a contract with US Navy for making all their hemp rope.

They (people back then) would smoke a blend of tobacco/jane in their cool, long stem clay pipes. And it was nowhere near as good as the shit P6 throws in his vaporizor ;)

[wormhole]

The whole idea that God’s ultimate aim for mankind is that they pick the correct unfounded, dubious and unsupported ancient claim so he can eternally reward or roast them - who could easily provide undeniable and irrefutable evidence of his existence and of what religion is true, but instead keeps himself hidden and insures there is plenty of reasonable doubt , then makes the punishment for this disbelief obscenely excessive and cruel.

[brightgoo]

Ill give you 8/10 for Elephant Hurling mate ;)

[gazzthompson]

@brightgoo

Thanks the the lesson on the bible, its quite interesting.

My point, and question is when people compare Islam to Christianity one of the main defences of Christianity is that it suits modern times. That its, dare i say, evolved? where as islam is still its old, out dates ways. Would you agree with this comment?

Another example of morality existing outside of the bible, and frankly slapping it in the face. The push for gay marriages in England. The government announced it will legalizes gay marriages. The fun bit is the church opposes, but the majority of people (all the top rated comments on all the news stories and everyone ive spoke too) simply think the church should shut up and go away. This is a moral decision, change that exists outside of the bible showing man can evolve morals based on rational thought.

[762happy]

im sure you will hit Sky Fairy Clodius . NOT

[brightgoo]

Very good insight gazz, thats why I love A/C is because of all the diversified perspectives. On same thoughts, I have even said that God "evolved" through the Bible. Beginning being a very hateful or mean (not putting up with any Shit) to the God we have now that is an all forgiveing God.

Brightgoo on homosexuality. I have dear friends and relatives that are such. Government wise, "Give unto Caesar that which is Caesar's" meaning for me let the Gov decide, if I (Christian) try to chime in, it wouldnt help my point of Christianity being all forgiveing, so I say let the Gov rule the people in that aspect.

No its not fair for traditional marriages to have better tax brackets, so if Homosexuals really want to marry one another then its all them, ya know :)

[MadeInRu]

0,o... that was some heavy talk about morals hehe...

Keep on going, nice read :)

[Jdubya]

But eagle, I DO believe in God.

And for the Sky fairy, that is their choice. Why hate them because they have different opinions and lifestyles?
After all we are all human and individually differ from one another.

But it's ok for you to hate and talk shit about Islam.....but you cannot take criticism regarding Christianity?
How many Americans are Muslim? Atheists? etc? After all they are American......AMERICAN. Are they not allowed to have the same rights as you?


You bring up the founding fathers a lot......did you know they actively grew marijuana and smoked it? I'm not talking about industrial hemp. Psychoactive marijuana.
Our founding fathers were potheads and encouraged others to grow it for pleasure and industrial purposes.

But to you, marijuana is the devil.....but you'll hammer down some beer.


Cherry picking......





For the record, I DO believe in God.....I hate organized religion.
I do not like homosexuals, but respect their right to marriage
I HATE muslims, I don't care for Jews. I really do not like Catholics
I hate hardcore rightwingers and leftists.
I hate big brother...I hate gun grabbers..
I hate Obama, I hate GW Bush
I hate abortion(when used as birth control)
I don't like Cops, but respect what they do
I love marijuana.


I agree with you 100% Sixx. America is a country of Freedom for ALL.

[serpa6]

Look i was in a catholic school for 8 years this reminds me of Bible class Every day but I agree with MIR this thread is very interesting and a good read

[eaglethebeagle]

HAVANA (Reuters) - Pope Benedict and Cuban revolutionary leader Fidel Castro, both octogenarians, joked about their age in a brief meeting on Wednesday and then Castro popped the question: so what do you do?
The two world figures chatted for about 30 minutes at the Vatican embassy in Havana near the end of the pope's three-day visit to Cuba, where he called for greater freedom and a bigger role for the Catholic Church in the communist-led nation.
Vatican spokesman Father Federico Lombardi said Benedict, 84, and Castro, 85, had an "exchange of ideas" in a "very cordial" atmosphere.
Castro led a 1959 revolution and transformed the Caribbean island into a communist state, ruling it for 49 years before stepping down due to poor health in 2008. Under his rule, Cuba for years called itself an atheist state, although relations with the Church have improved over the past two decades.
Castro arrived for his meeting with the pope on Wednesday in a green Mercedes SUV amid heavy security that included armed guards in a phalanx of surrounding black Mercedes cars.
He was helped out by two assistants, who supported him as he walked slowly up the steps into the stately white building where Benedict spent Tuesday night and where Pope John Paul II stayed during his landmark 1998 visit.
"What does a pope do?" Castro asked Benedict, who is just one year his junior. The pontiff told him of his ministry, his foreign trips and his service to the Church, saying he was happy to be in Cuba and with the welcome he received.
Dressed in a dark Reebok track suit and wearing a scarf despite the searing heat outside, Castro told the pontiff he had watched his whole visit on television. Two of his children were also presented to the pope.
Castro handed the reins of power to his younger brother, President Raul Castro, four years ago and he has since largely retired from government but he still writes columns and meets with visiting leaders. He told the pontiff he was spending most of his time reading and reflecting on the state of the world.
His columns are posted on the internet and read aloud on state television, and cover his fears of impending Armageddon, the evils of consumerism and his criticisms of arch ideological foe, the United States.
CASTRO SEEKS FOOD FOR THOUGHT
Castro questioned Benedict about changes in Church liturgy and asked the pope to send him a book to help him reflect. The pope said he would think of which one to send, but had not yet decided, Lombardi said.
The pair discussed the difficult world situation and the problems of mankind from a religious, scientific and cultural point of view.
And the pope also spoke to Castro about the problem of the absence of God in much of society today and the relationship between faith and reason.
As he was waiting for the pope, Castro said he had great admiration for Mother Teresa and for John Paul, whose visit 14 years ago marked a watershed in long-strained relations between the communist government and the Church.
Castro reinstated Christmas as a holiday ahead of John Paul's visit, and in talks on Tuesday with Raul Castro, the pope asked the government to consider also making Good Friday, the day Christians commemorate Christ's death, a national holiday.
(Writing by Jeff Franks and Simon Gardner; Editing by Kieran Murray)



im not catholic but I was brought up catholic. Either way it is interesting to me that castro seems to represent atheism with his communism....

[gazzthompson]

im not catholic but I was brought up catholic. Either way it is interesting to me that castro seems to represent atheism with his communism....

This makes no sense. What so ever. for one Cuba is secular, not atheist. after the communist revolution Cuba restricted religious practice (to see why, see previous posts) again not atheism. The govern blamed churches for collaborations with the CIA , again this is political reasons (as stated on previous pages) not atheism. State prosecution of religious people and institutions , again NOT atheism.

it was (not anymore) marxism-leninism which seeks to rid religion (for its own political gains) not atheism. We already explained this on this last page

I could go on and on. there is no link, there can't be. No single person, let alone a political ideology, can represent atheism. Just seems more fear mongering, associate something you don't like with something people are afraid of (communism in this case) so that people fear both. It's a good tactic to control people .

[eaglethebeagle]

This makes no sense. What so ever. for one Cuba is secular, not atheist. after the communist revolution Cuba restricted religious practice (to see why, see previous posts) again not atheism. The govern blamed churches for collaborations with the CIA , again this is political reasons (as stated on previous pages) not atheism. State prosecution of religious people and institutions , again NOT atheism.

it was (not anymore) marxism-leninism which seeks to rid religion (for its own political gains) not atheism. We already explained this on this last page




"Castro led a 1959 revolution and transformed the Caribbean island into a communist state, ruling it for 49 years before stepping down due to poor health in 2008. Under his rule, Cuba for years called itself an atheist state, although relations with the Church have improved over the past two decades."




I could go on and on. there is no link, there can't be. No single person, let alone a political ideology, can represent atheism. Just seems more fear mongering, associate something you don't like with something people are afraid of (communism in this case) so that people fear both. It's a good tactic to control people .


@gazz you seem to think from your comments here and elsewhere that what you say is how it is and we all should just believe you when honestly I believe yourself and others are confused a bit on your opinions on atheism. There is no arguing a fact is there? If a dictator states they are an atheist state then what about that is debatable? He declared it and so it is how it is. They have loosened the reigns recently it states which is good. Allowing the Pope to visit is good. So maybe in his twilight the dictator is beginning to see the light.

I understand from reading your comments for 2 years that you are your biggest fan and that we all should just listen to you as you seem to think you are absolutely right about all your opinions but reality is far from what you believe.

atheism is a foundation for nothing literally. Check the statistics and you are in a very small minority compared to all mankind.

[gazzthompson]

1. Fact: in 1992 Cuba declared itself a secular state, rather than atheist.
2. Fact: Cuba persecuted religions people and institutions. This is not atheism (and clearly done for political reasons)

All of the actions of Castro are very clearly for political reasons, he needed no religion (some shit about church and CIA). All in all Castro and communism being representatives of atheism is laughable.

And everyone is atheist too 99.99% of mankinds religions, some of us go 1 god further. Also. At the current trend atheists will be a majority in many EU countries in 1/2 generations I would imagine.

[Sixx]

Gazz, where are you getting your numbers on atheists in EU?
I'm not talking shit, just curious to see for my own "gee whiz" info...

back in the day most Europeans were heathens right? before the Christians started to convert and massacre?
or was that just northern Europe?




"Although the Census 2001 also recorded 390,000 Jedi Knights, making Jedi the fourth-largest "religion" in the UK, this does not confer them any official recognition. In fact, all returns with "Jedi Knight" were classified as "No religion", along with Atheist, Agnostic, Heathen and those who ticked "Other" but did not write in any religion."


Jedi Knights.....lol
that's awesome

[gazzthompson]

[url]http://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/2921/ Religious-and-Social-Attitudes-of-UK-Christians-in-2011.aspx

Christianity gets large poll numbers, but the fact is the majority are not even "Christians" as latest polls specifically asking this show:


When asked why they think of themselves as Christian, the research found that fewer than three in ten (28%) say one of the reasons is that they believe in the teachings of Christianity. People are much more likely to consider themselves to be Christian because they were christened or baptised into the religion (72%) or because their parents were members of the religion (38%) than because of personal belief.


Over a third (37%) have never or almost never prayed outside a church service, with a further 6% saying they pray independently and from choice less than once a year.

My parents for example, on the last Census listed Christianity, they have never believed in god or practice Christianity in anyway, they simply did it because" they where baptised and their parents always did it. Last time I checked atheists scored pretty high. In the 20-30% I think, but as you can see our own Christians aren't even Christian, let alone give a Fuck. And jedi's rule.

As for the rest of EU, just a guess. Scandinavian countries are known for their secularist population and atheism (much more than UK), but suffer from the poor polling data because leaving a an official church is (from what ive asked) "a fucking chore".

[MadeInRu]

Atheism is a by product of a specific regime, its not the route of it.

Let's make an assumption, state controlled media is the reason why certain regimes become totalitarian. We can't deny that any totalitarian regime is born from state controlled media can we? I mean look at it, its always the same.

Totalitarian regime is:
1. No independent law system.
2. No independent media.
3. Atheism.
4. No elections (Superficial elections).
5. No political opposition.
6. No right to voice your opinion.


Atheism is just one of the tools to control population and limit its views and judgement on actions done by the dictator.

It's one of the guns in the hands of a shooter, not the shooter in hands of the gun.

[gazzthompson]

Atheism is just one of the tools to control population

I would disagree with this, and claim that religion is.

[MadeInRu]

I would disagree with this, and claim that religion is.

Gaz, it comes from my previous post about Atheism being a mean to fight influence of religion.

Just a matter of expression in this case.

[MadeInRu]

Modern Atheism has developed in two distinct directions.

1st being a tool to fight church. At the start of the 20st century we have a global rise of communism which started in Russia. Church has always had huge political influence in Russian Empire and Czars never went against it. It was, as Gazz noted, an extremely useful tool to control peasants. Fear of unknown, together with past middle age mentality, a perfect combination to make one obedient.

2nd is a modern one. People became self sufficient. It's no longer about making sure you have enough food on the table, its about having the best life you have. Material things are taking over the need to believe in something. Way of life makes us to relay on our own strengths rather then the gold plated cross in church and holly guy in clothes which cost more then you earn in a year. Predominance of science also made sure that we can explain more and more in the world around us.

Those are my basic thoughts on the matter.