Question for Americans

[gazzthompson]

Was the US really founded on Christian values?

As an atheist (no, not a Muslim :P ) I frequent various atheist forums . Some of the most outspoken atheists are American atheists on said forums. They speak about how the US was not founded on Christian values, Their arguments i will go into in a second. The problem is I rarely see counter arguments as, well, it's an atheist forum

Disclaimer : These are NOT my views, these are views I've read from American Atheists, I'm just looking for the "other side of the coin" so to speak.

The three main points I've seen are: Treaty of Tripoli , in which it was declared:

"as the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen,—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

treaty was written under Washington's presidency, and it was ratified by Congress under John Adams, signed by Adams.

And the fact that Neither God or Jesus are mentioned in the U.S. Constitution. Nor are they mentioned in the Bill of Rights (not sure if true, haven't fully researched)

And finally the motto "In God We Trust" was only adopted in 1956.

Americans, what's your view on this?

Disclaimer : These are NOT my views, these are views I've read from American Atheists, I'm just looking for the "other side of the coin" so to speak.

[gutro]

Not sure this is the place for religious debate, however I'll toss my two cents in.

I believe it was founded under Christian beliefs. That doesn't mean the church runs the government, it just means the morals, laws and values influenced by the religion.

If it were simply founded by religion (rather than following it's influence) then there would be no such thing as freedom of religion or speech. Basically the Laws follow (more or less) the ten commandments, but at the same time you are free to be Muslim, Buddhist, Atheist, etc.

I'm Canadian, so I may be wrong, but that's how I view it...

[eaglethebeagle]

The pilgrims, as you will recall, were, Christians fleeing Europe in order to escape religious persecution, and they literally began their stay in their new land with the words, “In the name of God, Amen.”


The pilgrims were followed to New England by the Puritans, who created bible-based commonwealths. Those commonwealths practiced the same sort of representative government as their church covenants. Those governmental covenants and compacts numbered more than 100, and were the foundation for our Constitution.

New Haven (Connecticut) and Massachusetts were founded by Puritans who wanted to reform the Church of England, who later became known as Congregationalists. Roger Williams founded the colony of Rhode Island based on the principle of freedom of conscience. Pennsylvania was established by William Penn as a Quaker colony. Maryland was a haven for Catholics from Protestant England.

America was indeed founded by bible-believing Christians and based on Christian principles. When they founded this country, the Founding Fathers envisioned a government that would promote and encourage Christianity.

All but two of the first 108 universities founded in America were Christian. This includes the first, Harvard, where the student handbook listed this as Rule #1: “Let every student be plainly instructed and earnestly pressed to consider well, the main end of his life and studies is to know God and Jesus Christ, which is eternal life, John 17:3; and therefore to lay Jesus Christ as the only foundation for our children to follow the moral principles of the Ten Commandments."

In 1777. Continental Congress voted to spend $300,000 to purchase bibles which were to be distributed throughout the 13 colonies! And in 1782, the United States Congress declared, “The Congress of the United States recommends and approves the Holy Bible for use in all schools.



There is some history for you.

[Cole_Himself]

When President Harry Truman wrote to Pope Pius XII in 1947 that "This is a Christian nation.", he certainly did not mean that the United States has an official or legally-preferred religion or church. Nor did he mean to slight adherents of non-Christian religions. But he certainly did mean to recognize that this nation, its institutions and laws, was founded on Biblical principles basic to Christianity and to Judaism from which it flowed. As he told an Attorney General's Conference in 1950, "The fundamental basis of this nation's laws was given to Moses on the Mount. The fundamental basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teachings we get from Exodus and Saint Matthew, from Isaiah and Saint Paul. I don't think we emphasize that enough these days. If we don't have a proper fundamental moral background, we will finally end up with a totalitarian government which does not believe in rights for anybody except the State."

[Sixx]

Gutro, the forum is the correct and appropriate place for religious debates....or any touchy subject matter.



Gazz, boy you sure know how to pick 'em......... Hehehe.
This subject has been highly debated and it's one that no one can come to an agreement.
Too many misconceptions and biased "references"


It's one of those things that common sense and history comes into play.


But I have to ask, how many Athiests were around back in those days? Wasn't everyone Deists and hardcore bible thumpers?

I'll join in this debate once I get home.....I can't do shit on this stupid Ipad

[eaglethebeagle]

Do you know who John Adams is?

John Adams was born in 1735 in the Massachusetts Bay Colony. He was a Harvard-educated lawyer, and a delegate to both the First and Second Continental Congresses. A leader in the independence movement, he served diplomatically in France and Holland during the Revolutionary War. He was instrumental in negotiating the Treaty of Paris, which ended the Revolutionary War.

After the war, he served as minister to the Court of St. James, and then George Washington’s Vice President before becoming the second president of the United States.

On March 6, 1789, President Adams called for a national day of fasting and prayer for the country could "call to mind our numerous offenses against the most high God, confess them before Him with the sincerest penitence, implore his pardoning mercy, through the Great Mediator and Redeemer, for our past transgression, and that through the grace of His Holy Spirit, we may be disposed and enabled to yield a more suitable obedience. . ."

A few other quotes which demonstrate Adams’ thoughts about Jesus are below.

On April 18, 1775, a British soldier ordered him, John Hancock, and others to “disperse in the name of George the Sovereign King of England. Adams responded to him:

“We recognize no sovereign but God, and no king but Jesus!”

In an October 13, 1789 address to the military, he said:

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

In a letter to Thomas Jefferson dated June 28, 1813, he said

"The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity"

[gutro]

I just had a quote pop into my head, "There's no such thing as an atheist in a foxhole!" :p

Pzycho, I figured forums were the place to debate, but wasn't 100% sure on religious topic...
Thank you for clearing it up.

[eaglethebeagle]

Thomas Jefferson you may have heard of him?

Thomas Jefferson attended William and Mary College where he studied math, science, literature, philosophy, and law. In April 1767, he was admitted to the Virginia bar. He soon became known as a champion of independence from England. In 1775, he was appointed to the First Continental Congress, and in 1776, the Second Continental Congress which chose him to author the Declaration of Independence. He served in the Virginia House of Delegates, and he was the governor of Virginia during the Revolutionary War

After the war, he served in Paris as America's minister to France. During his absence, members of the Constitutional Convention contacted him, asking for his support of the new constitution. He gave that support, but only on the condition that the Bill of Rights be added.

When he returned from Paris, he served as President Washington's secretary of state until 1793. He ran for president against John Adams in 1796, but became Adams's vice-president, as the custom during those days was for the winner to become president and the loser to be his vice president. He ran again in 1800 and won, serving two terms as America's third president. While he was in office, he commissioned Lewis and Clark to lead an expedition across the Louisiana Purchase.

After his second term in 1808, Jefferson returned to his Virginia plantation, Monticello, where he worked as an inventor, scientist, architect, and linguist. It was during those years that he established the University of Virginia. Jefferson died on July 4, 1826, fifty years to the day after the Declaration of Independence was signed and. Coincidentally, that was the same day that John Adams died.

Raised Episcopalian, Jefferson believed that the New Testament had been polluted by early Christians eager to make Christianity palatable to pagans. He believed that they had mixed the words of Jesus with the teaschings of Plato and the philosophy of the ancient Greeks. The authentic words of Jesus were still there, he assured his friend, John Adams. He determined to extract the "authentic" words of Jesus from the rubble which he believed surrounded His real words. That book, intended as a primer for the Indians on Christ’s teachings, is commonly known as the "Jefferson Bible."

Written in the front of his personal Bible, he wrote:

"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus. I have little doubt that our whole country will soon be rallied to the unity of our creator."

In 1803, at the request of President Thomas Jefferson, the United States Congress allocated federal funds for the salary of a preacher and the construction of his church. That same year, Congress, again at Jefferson’s request, ratified a treaty with the Kaskaskia Indians. Congress recognized that most of the members of the tribe had been converted to Christianity, and Congress gave a subsidy of $100.00 a year for seven years for the support of a priest so that he could “instruct as many ... children as possible.”

On April 21, 1803, Jefferson wrote this to Dr. Benjamin Rush (also a signer of the Declaration of Independence):

“My views...are the result of a life of inquiry and reflection, and very different from the anti-Christian system imputed to me by those who know nothing of my opinions. To the corruptions of Christianity I am, indeed, opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian in the only sense in which He wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines in preference to all others.”

In that same letter, he wrote,

“To the corruptions of Christianity I am, indeed opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian, in the only sense in which he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others.”

In a letter to William Short on October 31, 1819, he wrote:

“But the greatest of all the reformers of the depraved religion of His own country, was Jesus of Nazareth.”
:USA::thumbsup:

[eaglethebeagle]

George Washington possibly you know who he is?

George Washington, known as the "Father of Our Country," was a farmer, military officer, and the first President of the United States.

In 1753, at the age of 21 and with no previous military experience, he became a major in the Virginia militia during the French and Indian Wars. Within two years, he was in command of all the Virginia forces. In 1758, he was elected to the Virginia House of Burgesses and left the army in order to serve in the House from 1759-1774.

He also served as vestryman in his Episcopal parish from 1763 to 1782.

In 1775, Washington was appointed military advisor for New York and was charged with defending New York from attack by the British, and within weeks, the Second Continental Congresss appointed him Commander-in-Chief of the entire military. Washington had not sought the position and he refused payment for it. In 1781, he forced the surrender of Cornwallis at Yorktown and won the war.

He was President of the Constitutional Convention of 1787, and served two terms as first President of the United States under the new Constitution. He declined to serve a third term, and retired to Mount Vernon in 1797 where he died of pneumonia two years later.

In his first general order to his own troops, General Washington said he called on:

‘Every officer and man...to live, and act, as becomes a Christian Soldier defending the dearest rights and liberties of his country.’

In a letter to all state governors in June, 1783, he wrote:

"I now make it my earnest prayer, that God would have you and the State over which you preside, in his holy protection, that he would incline the hearts of the Citizens to cultivate a spirit of subordination and obedience to Government--to entertain a brotherly affection and love for one another, for their fellow Citizens of the United States at large, and particularly for their Brethren who have served in the Field, and finally, that he would most graciously be pleased to dispose us all, to do Justice, to love Mercy, and to demean ourselves with that Charity, Humility, and Pacific temper of mind which were the Characteristicks of the Divine Author of our blessed Religion, and without an humble imitation of whose example in these things, we can never hope to be a Happy Nation."

In 1787, he warned the Constitutional Convention delegates:

“If to please the people, we offer what we ourselves disapprove, how can we afterward defend our work? Let us raise a standard to which the wise and the honest can repair; the event is in the Hand of God!”

In his famous Inaugural Address to both Houses of Congress, on April 30, 1789, with his hand on a Bible which was opened to Deuteronomy, Chapter 28, he said:

“Such being the impressions under which I have, in obedience to the public summons, repaired to the present station, it would be peculiarly improper to omit, in this first official act, my fervent supplications to that Almighty Being who rules over the universe, who presides in the councils of nations and whose providential aides can supply every human defect; that His benediction may consecrate to the liberties and happiness of the people of the United States a government instituted by themselves for these essential purposes; and may enable every instrument employed in its administration to execute with success, the functions allotted to his charge.

“In tendering this homage to the Great Author of every public and private good, I assure myself that it expresses your sentiments not less than my own; nor those of my fellow citizens at large, less than either.

“No people can be bound to acknowledge and adore the Invisible Hand which conducts the affairs of men more than the people of the United States. Every step by which they have advanced to the character of an independent nation seems to have been distinguished by some token of providential agency.

“And in the important revolution just accomplished, in the system of their United government, the tranquil deliberations and voluntary consent of so many distinct communities, from which the event has resulted, can not be compared with the means by which most governments have been established, without some return of pious gratitude, along with an humble anticipation of the future blessings which the past seem to presage ...

“We ought to be no less persuaded that the propitious smiles of Heaven can never be expected on a nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right which Heaven itself has ordained; and since the preservation of the sacred fire of liberty and the destiny of the republican model of government are justly considered as deeply, perhaps finally, staked on the experiment.”

When he proclaimed a National Day of Thanksgiving, he said:

“Whereas it is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favor...

“Now, therefore, I do recommend and assign Thursday, the twenty-sixth day of November next, to be devoted by the people of these Unites States...that we then may all unite unto him our sincere and humble thanks for His kind care and protection of the people of this country previous to their becoming a nation; for the signal and manifold mercies and the favorable interpositions of His providence in the course and conclusion of the late war; for the great degree of tranquility, union, and plenty which we have since enjoyed; for the peaceable and rational manner in which we have been enabled to establish constitutions of government for our safety and happiness, and particularly the national one now lately instituted; for the civil and religious liberty with which we are blessed...

“And also that we may then unite in most humbly offering our prayers and supplications to the great Lord and Ruler of Nations, and beseech Him to pardon our national and other transgressions...to promote the knowledge and practice of the true religion and virtue...

“Given under my hand, at the City of New York, the 3rd of October, A.D. 1789.”
:USA:

[eaglethebeagle]

Alexander Hamilton you should pay attention to what he stood for as it is why today our country is at a critical point with God being left out of everything so to appease all the other minority religions and atheist. Sorry I will piss off many of you who dont like religion or are not Christian but as these great men did before me I also put God first in the list of priorities as is proper. I am not an appeaser I am a Christian.

Alexander Hamilton was secretary and aide-de-camp to George Washington from 1777 to 1781. He was a member of the Continental Congress in 1782-83 and in 1787-88. In 1787, he was a representative to the Constitutional Convention. He was the first United States Secretary of the Treasury, and ran for the presidency against Aaron Burr in 1800 and then for Governor of New York in 1804.

Hamilton, who regularly led his household in prayer, also wrote about the connection between Christianity and political freedom. He helped to form the Christian Constitutional Society. In an 1802 letter to co-founder James Bayard, he said:

"I now offer you the outline of the plan they have suggested. Let an association be formed to be denominated 'The Christian Constitutional Society,' its object to be first: The support of the Christian religion. Second: The support of the United States.

“I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and if I was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would unhesitatingly give my verdict in its favor. I can prove its truth as clearly as any proposition ever submitted to the mind of man.”

He was fatally shot in a duel with Burr in July of 1804. His last words were:

I have a tender reliance on the mercy of the Almighty, through the merits of the Lord Jesus Christ. I am a sinner. I look to Him for mercy; pray for me.

[eaglethebeagle]

James Madison "Father of the Constitution"..... and is there any question why obama doesn't like the Constitution or why his wife hasn't been proud of America her entire adult life?

James Madison, co-author of the “Federalist Papers,” was an Episcopalian and trained for the ministry with the Rev. Dr. John Witherspoon. He was a member of the Virginia legislature from 1776-80 and 1784-86, of the Continental Congress in 1780-83, and the Constitutional Convention in 1787. It was in that Convention that he earned the title "Father of the Constitution."

He was a sponsor of the Bill of Rights while a member of the House of Representatives from 1789 to 1797, and authored the Virginia Resolutions of 1798 in opposition to the Alien and Sedition Act. He was Secretary of State from 1801 to 1809, 4th President of the United States from 1809 to 1817, and rector of the University of Virginia for ten years beginning in 1826.

He wrote on November 9, 1772 in a letter to William Bradford:

“A watchful eye must be kept on ourselves lest while we are building ideal monuments of Renown and Bliss here we neglect to have our names enrolled in the Annals of Heaven.”

In September of 1773, in a letter to William Bradford, he wrote:

“I have sometimes thought there could be no stronger testimony in favor of Religion or against temporal Enjoyments even the most rational and manly than for men who occupy the most honorable and gainful departments and are rising in reputation and wealth, publicly to declare their unsatisfactoriness by becoming fervent Advocates in the cause of Christ, & I wish you may give in your Evidence in this way. Such instances have seldom occurred, therefore they would be more striking and would be instead of a "Cloud of Witnesses."

In 1785, in Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments, Madison wrote:

"It is the duty of every man to render to the Creator such homage. Before any man can be considered as a member of Civil Society, he must be considered as a subject of the Governor of the Universe.

"We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self government; upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God."

Although he did speak of a "wall of separation," it is evident that the purpose of said "wall" was to prevent Congress from passing a national law to establish a national religion.

In an 1803 letter objecting to the use of government land for churches, he wrote:

“The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries.”

Madison was in the habit of making notes in his personal Bible, wrote this in Acts, Chapter 19:

“Believers who are in a state of grace, have need of the Word of God for their edification and building up therefore implies a possibility of falling. v. 32.

“Grace, it is the free gift of God. Luke. 12. 32-v.32.

“Giver more blessed than the receiver. v. 35.

“To neglect the means for our own preservation is to tempt God: and to trust to them is to neglect Him. v. 3 & Ch. 27. v. 31.

“Humility, the better any man is, the lower thoughts he has of himself. v. 19.

“Ministers to take heed to themselves & their flock. v. 28.

“The Apostles did greater miracles than Christ, in the matter, not manner, of them. v. 11.”

[eaglethebeagle]

Now about John Hancock signator on the Declaration of Independence.

Once the wealthiest merchant in Boston, John Hancock was groomed by Sam Adams and became one of the leading player in the Revolution. He presided over the Second Continental Congress and was the sole signer of the Dunlap-Broadside version of the Declaration. He was the first elected governor of Massachusetts, and was reelected 8 times. He was reelected President of the Second Continental Congress after the ratification of the Articles of Confederation, and presided over the Massachusetts convention which ratified the Constitution of the United States. Hancock’s signature is the largest on the Declaration of Independence.

On April 15, 1775, four days before the “Shot Heard ‘Round the World,”

“In circumstances dark as these, it becomes us, as Men and Christians, to reflect that, whilst every prudent Measure should be taken to ward off the impending Judgements..

“All confidence must be withheld from the Means we use; and reposed only on that GOD who rules in the Armies of Heaven, and without whose Blessing the best human Counsels are but Foolishness--and all created Power Vanity.

"It is the Happiness of his Church that, when the Powers of Earth and Hell combine against it...that the Throne of Grace is of the easiest access--and its Appeal thither is graciously invited by the Father of Mercies, who has assured it, that when his Children ask Bread he will not give them a Stone....

"RESOLVED, That it be, and hereby is recommended to the good People of this Colony of all Denominations, that THURSDAY the Eleventh Day of May next be set apart as a Day of Public Humiliation, Fasting and Prayer...to confess the sins...to implore the Forgiveness of all our Transgression...and a blessing on the Husbandry, Manufactures, and other lawful Employments of this People; and especially that the union of the American Colonies in Defense of their Rights (for hitherto we desire to thank Almighty GOD) may be preserved and confirmed....And that AMERICA may soon behold a gracious Interposition of Heaven."By Order of the [Massachusetts] Provincial Congress, John Hancock, President.”


I can go on with more but are these not the founders of America and men who framed America?

[eaglethebeagle]

John Marshall-

John Marshall served as an officer in the Continental Army from 1775 until 1779, where he became a devoted fan of General George Washington. His admiration prompted him to write a biography of Washington. He became a lawyer in 1780 and was elected to the Virginia House of Delegates in 1782, 1787, and 1795. He was a champion of the Constitution at the Virginia ratifying convention in 1788, earning the gratitude of his hero, Washington.

He was appointed one of three envoys sent on a diplomatic mission to France in 1797. Although offered appointment to the United States Supreme Court in 1798, Marshall preferred to remain in private practice.

He was was elected to the United States House of Representatives in 1799, and in 1800 President John Adams appointed him Secretary of State. The next year, President Adams nominated him Chief Justice of the United States Supreme Court, and the Senate confirmed the appointment on January 27, 1801. He continued to serve as Secretary of State throughout President Adams’s term and continued in both positions for a brief time following President Thomas Jefferson’s inauguration.

Marshall served as Chief Justice for 34 years, the longest tenure of any Chief Justice. With the Marbury v. Madison case, he helped establish the Supreme Court as the final authority on the meaning of the Constitution. Marshall died on July 6, 1835, at the age of 79.

In a letter to Jasper Adams on May 9, 1833, Chief Justice Madison wrote:

"The American population is entirely Christian, and with us Christianity and Religion are identified. It would be strange indeed, if with such a people, our institutions did not presuppose Christianity, and did not often refer to it, and exhibit relations with it.":USA:

[serpa6]

I just had a quote pop into my head, "There's no such thing as an atheist in a foxhole!" :p

Pzycho, I figured forums were the place to debate, but wasn't 100% sure on religious topic...
Thank you for clearing it up.
Great History eagle and good post gazz But I believe in gutro's quote says

[wormhole]

"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus. I have little doubt that our whole country will soon be rallied to the unity of our Creator”

Thomas Jefferson never wrote that or uttered any similar nonsense and was indeed a far better writer than that unknown Christian apologist hack that mumbled out that horrid little forgery of gibberish.

Google the sentence and be transported to websites full of pictures of Noah’s Arc and the Garden of Eden all eloquently described in 5th grade English.

[goinloco1]

January 6, 1893 a charter was given by the u.s. congress for the national cathedral

[Mel]

In the beginning I think so Gazz,But I don't think the U.S. is as religious as it once was.To me it's kind of an insult to those of us that are not christian.My values are as good as the next guy.To me the bible is useless once "Gods word" is interpreted by man,Because then it becomes mans law.
Ok...Let the beating begin.

[BrendenF11]

I would not say that America was founded upon christian beliefs. I am a Catholic, I do believe in god, I do believe in his teachings and I do believe in most of what the bible says teaches and preaches.

Eagle has posted some very worthy comentary on the founding fathers and what their beliefs were. However, a common word amongst all of this is the word, principal. America WAS founded upon the principals of christianity, it was not founded on the beliefs. There is a stark difference between the two words, and the actions taken when each word is implied. If you do not believe me look it up.


Principals were what this country was founded on, good solid principals. They are far from establishing christian principals, strictly speaking, in a new nation and establishing christian law. It was simply the founding fathers taking the best of what they knew, christianity, and applying it to proper governance of a free country. If that were not the case how could there be freedom of religion, press, or speech.

[762happy]

Yes duh

[Mel]

I agree with you 100% Brenden....But he asked about values,not beliefs.My values are as good as any christian's,but our beliefs may differ.That's all I was getting at.

[BrendenF11]

I agree with you 100% Brenden....But he asked about values,not beliefs.My values are as good as any christian's,but our beliefs may differ.That's all I was getting at.

Absolutely Mel, values which are essentially principals, thats why I was saying that it was founded on christian principals not beliefs. If it was beliefs we would be living in a much different society. I was not trying to say anything about any other religion, my appologies to you.

That is also why I said I believe in MOST catholic values, not all if I did then I would think that those that were not catholic would go to hell and I do not believe that in anyway shape or form. God gave man the ability to make choices, reason, and be very opinionated. That is why there is such a diversity of religions in the world, that is also why I do not think single one is right. Also why I am going to burn in hell with my Catholic religion.

[nastyleg]

In the beginning I think so Gazz,But I don't think the U.S. is as religious as it once was.To me it's kind of an insult to those of us that are not christian.My values are as good as the next guy.To me the bible is useless once "Gods word" is interpreted by man,Because then it becomes mans law.
Ok...Let the beating begin.

Very valid point Mel. However those that take it (religion) at face value are 9/10 gonna be branded extremist. Examples include Amish, quakers, Sharia law, ultra othadox whatever's.

[Mel]

Your right Nasty,And I'm as guilty of that as the next guy.I see the need for religion and how it helps people in some situations.I guess I just get tired of hearing from some people that your not a good person if you haven't found religion.
@Brenden...You didn't offend me bro,and I hope you don't burn in hell for speaking your mind.

[nastyleg]

What people fail to see is the underlying theme of religion. That is the golden rule. Treat others as you would want to be treated. If life were only that simple huh.

[eaglethebeagle]

As a Christian I pray to God that those who I respect and care for do what God expects from them regardless of what they qualify as being religious or devout behavior. There are great people who haven't found religion and I am one who struggles with understanding that just because they don't follow a strict religious faith they will not be going to Heaven. I think it is crucial as a believer in God that you try to learn what God wants from you. He has a Bible it is here on earth for a reason you have to have FAITH in many aspects of being a Christian as that is part of the point of being religious.

I respect all peoples opinions but in the end there will be a time when our opinions don't matter and it will be the thought of either "I was right" or "ah shit I was wrong". I don't want to be in the "ah shit" category.

[gazzthompson]

Oh wow, some good posts here. Haven't had the chance to read em all yet as ive been busy all weekend but will do later!

[wormhole]

Christian-insanity, also know as, the Death Cult of Human Sacrifice. Yes, pilgrims Jesus died for your sins (only for three days and then he became vice-chairman of the universe) so what are these so called sins? THE FALL OF MAN DUMMY! Eve listen to a talking snake and did a no no - so everyone gets fucked over by this and needs saving forever - why doesn’t God just forgive everyone without this brutal human sacrifice? Because that would be no fun and it‘s a great way to control minds.

Got to love the imagination of those bronze-age Jewish goat herders living in the desert without the slightest understanding of science. Is there a shred of evidence for this nonsense - nope.

[Mel]

As a Christian I pray to God that those who I respect and care for do what God expects from them regardless of what they qualify as being religious or devout behavior. There are great people who haven't found religion and I am one who struggles with understanding that just because they don't follow a strict religious faith they will not be going to Heaven. I think it is crucial as a believer in God that you try to learn what God wants from you. He has a Bible it is here on earth for a reason you have to have FAITH in many aspects of being a Christian as that is part of the point of being religious.

I respect all peoples opinions but in the end there will be a time when our opinions don't matter and it will be the thought of either "I was right" or "ah shit I was wrong". I don't want to be in the "ah shit" category.

Very good Beagle,I'm not quite as articulate as yourself.If I'm wrong and there is a supreme being,Maybe he will look at the way I've lead my life and have forgiveness in his heart for me for not accepting him while alive.

[eaglethebeagle]

Well in my heart I believe God will be just by those who truly are good. Unlike the other so called religion I DONT have an urge to slice open your neck or bury you half way in the ground and throw rocks at you.

:thumbsup: